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Old 01-17-2006, 09:30 PM
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torque plate???

I have a 302 im about to have work done on so i decided to call aruond a little bit. i called one place and they told me the could bore my block as i needed but for close to 100bucks more theyd use a torque plate on it. the way he explained it to me.. its so the cylinder doesnt get up and run away.... but i thought that was a given. is it really necessary.. especially for only a daily driver? and what does it really do? got any ideas let me know!

Thanks guys!
Jessica

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Old 01-17-2006, 09:41 PM
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Torque plate

What a torque plate does is when it is bolted onto the block it imparts the same loads to the block as if a set of heads were bolted on..that insures that the cylinders are bored round in the condition of use..Torque plates are normally used when we are building engines for the last little wee bit of HP we can get out of that particular engine.

For a daily grocery getter it is not necessary to use the torque plates..It is a fair question from a machinist as he probably wants to know just what you want and expect in a rebuild..

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Old 01-17-2006, 09:52 PM
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I feel to achieve a round cylinder and the best seal of the rings it's a very wise investment. We hone every block with a torque plate.
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Old 01-18-2006, 08:56 AM
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Torque plate ?

The original castings are NOT bored/honed with a torque plate as they progress down the transfer machine line. the transfer machine does not clamp on the adjacent bore for location

Has anyone a scientific, measurable rational reason for the torque plate?
Are the differences measurable with precision measuring gauges?
I've wondered about this before.
Yes I am a machinist, done many precision operations and know that clamping improperly can distort the part
Do others just take this "torque-plate" as a must do but don't know why?
If it is bored on a true boring machine (DeVlieg jigmill) rather than the "clamp-on-block" type is the plate necessary?
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Old 01-18-2006, 09:39 AM
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plate

Well this subject has many opinions on it, just like rod length..L.O.L.

The idea/theory is that you should duplicate the bore stress like as running conditions. Now how far you take it is like anything else. I know guys that will install the cam bearings, water pump, motor mounts, and torque plates before they hone a bore to finish size... Over kill????

In a stock or near stock application there is no way you need to pay the money for them...

I have had competition engines in my shop that were finished with the plates but need a right now freshen-up. I honed them with-out plates and there was zero difference in how the car raced....
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This gets a little deep for the original question but i am trying to answer Detroit 1946 here,

As a machinist you understand hole geometry. The fact that you can used a dial bore gauge and check the hole at 0 and 90 degrees and have what looks like a round hole. Then you run a indicator around the hole and it's out of round .0003" or more!!!

What happens if you hone a block with-out the plates, then install the plates and just kiss the bore with a hone it will not always remove the bluing (top 1/4 of the bore)... The 400 chevy engines will be bad, The big block chevys will usually be with-in .0002",, most of the older ford small blocks hardly change at all ( they only use 4 head bolts per cylinder and i think this has something to do with it)

So all that being said there is a difference,,, but translated to power, ring seal, durability ( except the 400 small block chevy) i feel it's a non issue...

Now take that same engine and run 180 degree water through it and see what happens to the bores!!!!!!

This is all production blocks here, the aftermarket blocks, dart,world etc are built for racing and are more dimensionally stable....

Keith
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Old 01-18-2006, 09:45 AM
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The affect's of a round ring and cylinders aren't really appreciated untill you use a moly (Hard) ring. Then the only part that really matters that much is the top 1" of ring travel. The affect of sealing are even greater with 1.5mm ring packages.
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Old 01-18-2006, 09:45 AM
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I understand the benefits of using a torque plate, but what bothers me is the price.........The plate is used many times over its life. How expensive is this plate to get made, and why such a steep price just to bolt this to the block.

To me, its a little too expensive.................enlighten me.
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Old 01-18-2006, 09:50 AM
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plates

Never really priced a new one, i make my own..i would think the aluminum ones are salty. Some of the extra cost is because of the time needed to clean everything up attach the plate torque all the blots, etc.... then do it again for the other side,unless you have 2 plates for each engine...

They usually go for an average of $250 on e-bay used..

Keith
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Old 01-20-2006, 09:56 PM
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Torque plate honing became quite popular a couple decades ago. Yes it helps. Yes there is a measurable difference in the bore demensions.

The torque plate SIMULATES the bore distortion of a bolted on head. It does NOT duplicate it.

Just remember: The bore also distorts with honing frictional heat, and with HOT COOLANT in the block. New techniques gaining popularity are pumping hot coolant through the blocks while honing.. better...... but still not like the engine is running....

Is it really worth it for an average or mild performance engine...... depends on your definition of "worth it".

After 10,000 miles the bore will wear to the heat distortion pattern anyway.
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Old 01-21-2006, 06:40 AM
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If you have any kind of real engine that you have invested some real money an expect big power, you need to use torque plates when it's honed.

It's expensive because it takes time to torque the plate down, and when you hit it with th the hone, it's doubly hard to do because the bore is all jacked up from the torque plate distortion.

This is an area where I have alot of experience and subtle changes really can make a difference. The difference, if it's done right will be found in longevity and ring seal. Engines that have the bores finished right, and the rings properly fit, seal up and perform well under a leak down test, even after a hard season of racing.

Little things, like what type of fasterners are used also make a difference. If the engine used studs, then you absolutely use the studs to fasten the torque plate down. If you don't, you're just wasting your time.

My honing process on racing stuff goes like this, block is rough bored and .005" material is left out of the block. The bores are honed with a roughing stone until they are straight and basic roundness and straightness is achieved, (generally about .002" of stock removal), I alternate holes so cooling can take place while I'm honing. I then move to an intermediate grit stone and remove more stock,now paying attention on keeping the bore on the money from top to bottom. Again, alternating bores to allow each bore to cool down, so true size can be measured. This is done until there is approximately .0015 of stock left to remove. I then use a 280 grit stone which is normally a street finish, and remove .001, leaving a half a thousands to go.

I then let the block set for several hours to cool off completely. I check each bore with a dial guage to check how tight they are in the center, which is normally what I run into, that the bores get tight in the middle after they cool off.

Finally, I switch to a 400 grit stone (very fine) and remove the last .0005" with very light pressure. It's cooled and then if any finesse work needs to be done, I do it.

When it's finally to size, I either finish it with a cork polishing stone or a bottle brush for the proper "already broken in surface". Leaving a mirror finish, with absolutely no trace of torn away boring bar marks or imbedded material from the boring process.

This is how a competition engine is finished, and it's expensive to do it.

If you are paying out big bucks, make sure it's done in this way with the torque plates.
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Old 01-21-2006, 09:58 AM
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Why can't one of you guys move out here to East Central Georgia and open a shop?

Larry
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Old 01-21-2006, 10:38 AM
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I wish I were on the East coast, I'm sure there would be plenty of customers. However, I'm sure the operational costs would be much higher. Maybe someday.


Just watch out for shops that bore very close to finish size and then just knock another .001" off of it and call it good. That's the way it used to be done when you had to hone them with a big drill and portable hone head.

Don't get me wrong for any guys that have a manual type hone that relies on arm power to hone the block. If you are skilled and have a quality sunnen type hone head, you can get good results, but it's going to kill you to hone out .005" stock that way. Read this "you can't make money doing that".

You really need at least an air assist type hone to do work like this. Ask the shop if they have a Sunnen Power Hone of some kind, at least an old CK-10. Really, or more modern version. They are the only way to really finish a block IMOP.
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Old 01-22-2006, 05:24 AM
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When you hone with a plate have you already installed the welsch plugs? same goes for decking.
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Old 01-22-2006, 10:46 AM
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Now I'll really throw one into the mix

any of you hard core guys looked into bolting up a torque plate to a cylinder head to complete a valve job yet? interesting to lap a seat with one bolted up
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Old 01-22-2006, 05:57 PM
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mix

I have not done it yet Bill but my engine building mentor has told me it will make more difference on the seats then it makes the bores out of round....

Crap, now we did it,, every 300 hp engine building guy will now want his heads plate lapped!!!!!! maybe we can start a new trend here....$$$$$

Keith
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