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Old 06-24-2004, 10:51 AM
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Torque or RPM's for a 4speed ? (manual)

K Guys,

I've been digging through the archives,& there sure is allot of arguing about V8 Old's Motors float'n around in there!

Seems like a bunch of confusion for the people who started the post's,& would simply like to know which direction to go in.

Anyhow one thing I have noticed is that everyone agrees (THANK GOD)
that certain Engines were built for Torque,& Others for RPM's.
(i have also noticed that you can make one do another as well)

This is where I come in...

I am curious as to what would be "best" for a MANUAL,(pay close attention AutoHeads i'm going to say it again for your benefit) MANUAL Transmission.

Torque,or RPM's,or a Combination of BOTH?

BANG!!! AND THEY'RE OFF!

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Old 06-24-2004, 11:07 AM
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You running an econo rear end like a 3.36 or a mild street gear like a 4.88 or something really festive?
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Old 06-24-2004, 11:23 AM
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Your question has no answer, sorry.
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Old 06-24-2004, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
I am curious as to what would be "best" for a MANUAL
There is an answer! A GOOD driver!! Does not matter Torque,or RPM's, a sorry driver will tear up a good manual transmission even with low torque low hp low rpm's.

Joe
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Old 06-24-2004, 03:07 PM
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dmc12mk3

I'm not running it at all,at the moment.

Thats the point,I'll know exactly what I'm building before I do it.

Since my wife Prefers the Feiro as a Commuter Car,
I've decided to rebuild an engine for it,& give it to her.

That Free's up a Full Size 83' Cutty for me to mess with with.
I'm start'n to think a 442 version,of my own.

Just researching,then deciding which way to go,before I jump.

4 Jaw Chuck

Thanks for helping out!

camaroguy_1967

Kinda what I thought in the first place.

I've had #1 three,#1 four,& #3 fives never had a problem!
(of course I replaced a clutch "once")

The last one was in an 86' Firebird,(original) and probably had
between 200-250,000 miles on it,(odometer stopped working) when
I finally cut loose of it.

Thats why I hate Auto's,
compared to a Manual "THEY'RE ABSOLUTE JUNK"!
(you can quote me on that)

Last edited by Stick'n It; 06-24-2004 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 06-24-2004, 09:36 PM
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Bottom end torque motors and high rpm horsepower motors are equally suited to manual tranny's. Torquey motors with wide flat power bands are best suited to wide ratio trannys which have a larger rpm drop between gears. High rev'ing motors with spikey power bands will work best with close ratio trannys having less rpm drop during gear changes.
Given enough gears a heavier car could work with a high rev'ing motor however it's common to put the torque motor and wide ratio tranny in the heavy cars.
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Old 06-25-2004, 12:57 AM
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tresi

So what I think I hear you saying is #4 speed + 400SBC,
less QUICK shifting EVEN RESPONSE?
(steady power throughout the entire range)

And #5 speed + 350 SBC stroked to 383,
allot QUICKER shifting RIDE THE WAVE?
(possibly more meat in the midrange)

Right?
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Old 06-25-2004, 11:45 AM
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stick a 6 spd in and call it that...

OLDSPOWER ALL THE WAY
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Old 06-25-2004, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stick'n It
tresi

So what I think I hear you saying is #4 speed + 400SBC,
less QUICK shifting EVEN RESPONSE?
(steady power throughout the entire range)

And #5 speed + 350 SBC stroked to 383,
allot QUICKER shifting RIDE THE WAVE?
(possibly more meat in the midrange)

Right?
A 350 stroked to 383 is the same stroke as the 400. Engine size is only a small part of what makes an engine a torque motor or a high winder. It's the correct combination of induction system, cam, heads, bore to stroke ratio, Camshaft specs and exhaust system that makes a motor torquey or not.
Due to piston stresses and cylinder filling it used to be that all long stroked small blocks were good for was low speed torque. Now days with the best parts engine builders are rev'ing everything to the moon.
Yes, a 400 or a 350 stroked to 383 will tend to favour bottom end torque but if you over cam them or use a set of heads that way miss matched to the rest of the motor you can still kill the bottom end.
Which should you do? Take a look at what you have to work with. That 83 Cutlass doesn't have a lot of room for big tires and if you hit the stock rear suspension with a ton torque the rear tires are going to be hopping up and down like crazy. So if you're planing on a torque monster and manual tranny you better plan do the subframe, narrowed axle and wheel tub thing first.
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Old 06-25-2004, 07:56 PM
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tresi

I simply thought the 383 Stroker was a HIGHER Revving motor,
& was using it as an example.

Personally I would much rather build the 400SBC if is not allot
greater expense,& comes by it's power more naturally.

You made mention of the RIGHT parts for the 400,
what would you consider an economic combination.

I don't mean CHEAP,just NOT THROUGH THE ROOF!

This is what I am looking to get out of it...

I want the POWER to be there when needed.
(but completely controllable with a manual transmission)

I want it to have MORE THAN ENOUGH Highway Power.
(especially passing (mostly from 40-80mph)

I want it to run as COOl as possible.
(the cooler the better)

I will not be racing it.
(unless provoked!)

And I want to be able to REBUILD it in the future if necessary.
(not so bored the first time,that it can't be done again)

I understand that some of this is going to be left up to the Gears,
& Rear End.I would appreciate your input on the TOTAL PACKAGE.

P.S. I also noticed your in Jeff City thats not to terribly far from here,
I'm about 30miles Southwest of Poplar Bluff.

P.S.S. I've got my eye on the Edelbrock "Air-Gap" Manifold for this Motor,
I REALLY LIKE the Pontiac Concept,& it's cooling benifits.

Would the ENTIRE "Performance Plus" Package be a good place to start,
or are there better Cam's etc.. out ther for the same Money,(or a little more)
that would Mate well with this Manifold?

Last edited by Stick'n It; 06-25-2004 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 06-26-2004, 11:34 AM
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First thing to do is to inventory what you now have on hand. The choice between building a 383 or 400 really comes down to whether or not you have a good 400 block. It would be best to have one that hasn't been bored yet because almost any block you'll find will need bored to clean up the cylinders. If a 400 block has already been bored .030 over (unless it's just freshly machined) you might want to pass on it. Some 400 blocks will go to .040 and .060 but you should have checked with ultrasound to make sure that the cylinder walls are thick enough. That one of the reasons that 383's are so popular there's just not a whole lot of good 400 blocks left. Do you have a good set of heads to rebuild or are you going to buy heads?
Now if whether you build a 383 or 400 you're going to need a good 400 flywheel in order to run a manual. There never was a lot of stock 400 flywheels so you're probably going to have to go aftermarket for this. Do have a clutch linkage in your 83 cutlass yet? If not In my opinion I'd rig up a hydraulic set up rather trying to get a mechanical linkage for your car.
Let's see what you have to work with and then I'll work on the detail of what I'd put in the motor.
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Old 06-26-2004, 02:39 PM
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Actually I have Dib's on a 400SBC Casting#3951509 73-80' 2BM

I looked it over as good as I could,it's in a HUGE dark Garage,at a Junk Yard.

I asked the guy if he knew whether or not it had been bored,
he said "Look at the Pistons" if there are no #'s on them then they're
more then likely stock.

They had no # designation anywhere to speak of.
I checked the Cylinder Walls & didn't find any Pitting of any kind.

Some very minor rust was present that practically all wiped completely away
with a stroke of the finger,& they felt surprisingly SMOOTH.I think they would not HAVE to be bored much,if any at all.

For once I guess it's a good thing a motor was covered in GRIME!

It's the BARE block,no heads etc... I can get it for $250.000

I would REALLY rather have the 400SBC,& I REALLY dig that "Air-Gap"
Manifold.

Is there another way for a Regular Guy like me to just walk up and check,to confirm if the Cylinders have been bored or not?

Will a hand held Caliper do the trick?

P.S. As far as parts go I will be starting from ground zero.

P.S.S. Other castings on the block are 509 H2 & 010 020

Last edited by Stick'n It; 06-26-2004 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 06-26-2004, 08:01 PM
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Yes, you can tell if a block has been bored with caliper. A dial caliper or electronic is best. Even the cheap plastic dial calipers that read in hundredths rather than thousandths will tell if it's been bored. Even a caliper that has no dial and reads in fractions can tell that. Just keep in mind that 1/32th of an inch is .03125 Also note that it is very difficult to impossible to measure the bore wear with a caliper because you need below the top of the ring travel.
If you're really wanting a motor that likes to be wound up tight have you consided building a 377? Basically you use bearing spacers to put a 350 crank in a 400 block. This lets you use neutral balanced flywheels and balancers. It going to be easier to control the wheel hop with a 377 but even with a good 350 it's easy to overpower the rear suspension on a car like yours.

The intake you're wanting to use makes a good street/strip intake but it tends to be really cold blooded in the winter.
As for the rest of the motor, what's your plan for heads? If you can afford it aftermarket heads are the way to go whether you're trying to make lots of torque or upper end power. Not the same head for both jobs but rather the aftermarket has different heads suited for each job. If you must use stock heads see if you can get a set of '96 or later vortec heads. A few years ago it was a pain running vortec heads but there are a lot more manifolds available nowdays.
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Old 06-26-2004, 10:41 PM
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If I get the Calipers,& measure the Cylinders what is the stock,(not re-bored) measurement that I'm looking for?

Even if I can't measure the Bore wear due to the rings,it more than likely won't be so extreme that I would have to have it bored over 20,or 30
would it?

Actually I don't want a Motor that has to work to hard to come by it's power,
even if that means I have to Rebuild it "closer" to factory specs.

I don't want more wear,& tear on the internal components than
necessary.In other words I don't want it to have to work to FAST.

It's my understanding that the smaller crank work's harder,& faster than a bigger one,& in turn produces more Friction,witch produces more wear on the parts,& more overall heat as well.

If this is correct,& true of the 377 as well then I really need
to steer clear of it.

As for heads,again it goes back to LONGEVITY if cast iron will last longer then thats the way I need to go.If all of the after market heads nowadays are aluminum as well as newer stock,then I will have to plead OLD used heads.

Bear in mind I AM NOT GOING TO BE RACING this thing,& I could'nt care less if it's not faster than Joe Blow's from a dead stop either.

In short I really want good power,but at the same time I need
to build a Motor thats going to last.

Because of this I had planned on Having the Block,& all internal parts
Cryoed.I had also planned on installing a Hayden Oil Cooler as well.

After I get it built I do not want to have to tear it apart again,(if i can help it)
or scrap it later on down the road.I want it to last as long as absolutely possible.

Thats why I have been leaning toward the 400 SBC .Is'nt the 400 SBC built WISELY a stronger longer lasting Motor than smaller bore SBC's?

P.S. As for the Air Gap Manifold being Cold Natured,is that only until the Engine gets warmed?
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Old 06-27-2004, 04:28 AM
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If i remember correctly, a 400SBC is less reliable than a good 350SBC. They also don't make a 4 bolt main 400SBC to my knowledge. Other than that, I am still a little fuzzy as to what it is you want, and what you are asking.
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