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Old 04-03-2005, 09:54 AM
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Torquing center support in TH400/4L80E

This is an easy one for you guys (I hope).
I'm finally getting around to doing my 4L80E, got the computer, etc.
Got the ATSG video(pretty useless), using the ATSG manual and Haynes(TH400) trying to fumble through it.
I'm at the part where it says to place a medium sized screwdriver through the direct drive orifice in the case, down through the direct drive orifice in the center support and basically preload it before fully torquing the center support lube bolt to ~30foot pounds. Everything says "counterclockwise".
Counterclockwise as looking at the trans from the pump end or the output shaft end? Nothing I can find says which way. In the ATSG video, they don't even make reference to it but it seems pretty important with the reference in the ATSG manual and the Haynes.

I'm also gonna convert the bronze thrustwasher that the output shaft rides on to a torrington. Several times in the ATSG they make reference to the bronze thrust washer's high failure rate. I've found a place that sells a "kit" here:
Quote:
Their information is:
Oldani Motorsports
Waterloo, Iowa
50701-1622
(319)233-5677
http://www.oldanimotorsports.20megsf...m/custom2.html
It's under the 400 stuff. I'm not affiliated nor advertising for them but after about 2 hourse of interenet searching, they were the only place I could find that actually sold just that without buying the whole trans.
If anyone knows a "homemade" way that a guy with regular tools could do this, please let me know.

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Old 04-03-2005, 07:30 PM
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I know some of you guys have built 400s and know what I'm talking about.
Anyone....echo.....
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Old 04-03-2005, 08:04 PM
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lol....

the torrington bearing deal for the back of a t-400 case is a C-6 bronze pump bushing and a t-350 pump torrington bearing. Use a t-350 pump thrust bearing shim to tighten up the clearance if needed.

I have a custom built fixture & tooling for a lathe... I cut a groove in the bushing for oiling, similar to the OE t-400 bushing


installl the center support. tap the snap ring in place with a large screw driver and hammer. tighten the center support bolt.
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Old 04-03-2005, 09:10 PM
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Here's what I'm talking about just to be sure:

The hole that is "down" from the center support bolt in the picture is where they are saying to put in a screwdriver and pry counterclockwise and then torque the bolt. ATSG says same thing. Is this not necessary? The pic is a TH400 of course but the 4L80E(what I'm actually working on) is pretty similar down in this part of the build.

Can I get a rear torrington setup from you? I know you weren't advertising or anything but I'd really appreciate it.

Sorry for my feeble attempt at humor
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Old 04-04-2005, 03:27 PM
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Nobody? Anybody? I'm sure Crosley isn't the only one that's built a 4L80E or 400 before. He shouldn't have to answer all these.
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Old 04-04-2005, 06:10 PM
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2 things;

there is only one center support bolt.

I do not sell parts
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Old 04-05-2005, 07:58 AM
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Nevermind. Pics usually tell better than words. That pic showed the only center support bolt, yeah, but it had a nice little blurb of the question I was actually asking which was never answered. There's a shop over in town, I'll go there and ask them and see if they know what I'm talking about.
I know you don't sell parts, I know you weren't advertising. I was just asking if I could get one from you and give you something for it for being so helpful to others on here instead of going somewhere else. Obviously the answer is no.
Silly me thought it was a simple question. This trans has little to no information(other than parts listings) on the internet(like the 700 used to be). Hopefully it will break out eventually as more people go to them.
Later.
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Old 04-05-2005, 08:04 AM
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not sure what answer you are looking for.

I built my first t-400 in 1974 with an old trany guy looking over my shoulder. I still build them the same way as I posted.

Make sure the snap ring is engaged correctly. There is a bevel on the snap ring. Tap the snap ring in place with a hammer and screw driver as I mentioned.

there is also 2 different thicknesses to the center supports of the t-400. One uses the wear snap ring, one does not.

there actually was another bolt in the case years ago for a pre-load on the center suport.


but then we are discussin the 4L80E in this thread ..... right?



I am not a business, I do not sell parts. I closed my shop several years ago when I realized I was tired of being the " boss, book keeper, tech guy , janitor, security officer, cashier.....
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Old 04-05-2005, 08:17 AM
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You don't have to answer the question.
See that picture? Under it is a short blurb about sticking a screwdriver through the lube hole in the case all the way down into the lube hole in the center support. Then take the screwdriver and rotate the whole center support counterclockwise to seat the center support against the splines machined into the case. Then torque the bolt down while you hold the center support against the splines. From what I understand, it's supposed to keep the center support from walking around and damaging that bolt that's been weakened from the lube orifice drilled through it possibly making a poor lube situation. Unfortunately, all reference just say "counterclockwise". Counterclockwise from what? If you are standing on the pump end looking down into the trans? If you are standing, looking at the output shaft end? Nothing gives any reference. That's what I was asking. The ATSG and Haynes are really good about everything else. They even give the thicknesses of the snap rings so you don't mix them up on reinstallation. They just do a poor job on explaining the center support being "preloaded" before the torquing of the bolt.
Like I said, no answer necessary at this point. I think I understand what's happening.
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Old 04-05-2005, 08:26 AM
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actually , I gave you the answer in my last post. You did not catch it and then ask another question.

As you look in the case through the hole where the pump installs.......... counter clock wise.

I just asked a tranny guy that I bounce stuff off of every week. He has forgotten more about trannys than I will know. His response to the question cannot be posted here do to the language he used.

Basicaly his answer was ; 'don't worry about it'

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Old 04-05-2005, 08:41 AM
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You just told me you didn't understand what I was asking...then you bascially said you answered the question by not answering it......it would've been easier if you would've just said, "that prying on the center support isn't necessary" or something like that. That way I wouldn't have spent all that time scanning pics and stuff while wasting your time. You old hotrod guys are so damn weird. It's like picking a lock on a safe trying to get to the book inside.

Last edited by bugsdad; 04-05-2005 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 04-05-2005, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
not sure what answer you are looking for.
that is what I posted. I posted a similar question/non-answer with the statement about the preload bolt GM used for a few years in the t-400 center support. The preload pushed the center suport counter clock wise.


I have never wedged a center support in the case before tightening the bolt. The center suport will move around a bit and find it's happy place. there used to be little wedge spacers in the after market that a person could tighten up the gaps in the t-400 center support to case fitment.

I know what the ATSG manual and others say about various instal procedures. Some items are unclear to DIY folks working on stuff.

I was having an intense 700r4 discussion on a bbs years ago with a fellow that was quoting the ATSG book ... I finally told him I knew what the book says , but I also know what works better. He used my method and now uses the same quote on 700 setups. He has learned a great deal in the past few years and is not a trany guy.

You are correct, I need to set up some web pages with simple stuff like I did on the 700 years ago. Most folks will not spend the cash it takes to work on a 4L80E tranny. They are a bit expensive.


You are also correct , it can be a challenge to get answers out of a true trany guy at times. Not sure why.

I will post some fotos later to show my tightening methods of the center support that I have used for decades. I use the same method on the 4L80E.
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Old 04-05-2005, 09:20 PM
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how I tork the center support bolt on a t-400


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Old 04-06-2005, 09:10 AM
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I don't think I understand if you guys understand what I don't understand what you don't understand about what you don't understand about what each other doesn't understand. Understand?
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Old 04-06-2005, 05:03 PM
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ARGHHH! I can't standz it.

I am going to make an educated guess. If you tighten the single bolt in the "clockwise" direction (righty tighty lefty loosy), you will tend to twist the center support in the same "clockwise" direction. Dropping a screwdriver down through the adjacent hole and pre-loading it in "counter-clockwise" direction will offset this so the carrier will end up with its centerline parrallel (and hopefully concentric) with all the other centerlines in the transmission.

When I rebuilt my last 400 many years ago, I did not know to do this. Nor did I even consider it until I saw this thread. (It makes sense now that I am older and hopefully wiser). That tranny lasted 400 passes in a 3800 lb car with a warm 396. Of course others on this BB have informed me it should have blown up on the first pass due to my home made shift kit. Of course the info on how to modify it came through my VoTech instructor who got the info from a GM tranny rep. Who knew!

Bugsdad - Whadda ya think?
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