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-   -   toughest paint (http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/toughest-paint-76898.html)

acsteve 12-23-2005 08:43 PM

toughest paint
 
I was steered to nason urethane with a etch primer. This was supposed to be a tough paint for the money anyway. How would this system rate in terms of durabiltiy to mild abrasions and the elements as well as some minor solvent exposure? thanks Should I really go to epoxy primer over blasted metal? Paint guy gave me etch primer, said it would give better adhesion and rust prevention and was a bit cheaper. It sprayed well and all seems good but should I now change to epoxy and was I jobbed by the jobber? Also would it be prudent to stick with either ppg and dupont systems since I am a novice. Are no name(least not that I know) anygood? thanks

BondoKing 12-23-2005 10:59 PM

Sounds like classic counter crap.. Etch primer is old technology, just like lacquer primer, lacquer paint, acrylic enamel paint, single stage urethane....

It is like this... You can paint anything with anything... I as well as many of the old timers have painted lots of cars/vehicles with lacquer paint and primer or old AE jobbers seem to love to push on new guys...

Yet time has given us better and better methods and products..
For bare metal you should be using epoxy, then do your filler work over top of it

Next you will 2k primer and block sand

Next you will bc/cc... cheap, most user friendly, and easiest to repair... trust me everyone makes mistakes and needs to repair things!!!!

As far as product brand goes... look here http://southernpolyurethanes.com/homepage.htm

you can get your epoxy, 2k, clear and if you are looking for something in one of his few colors, then his base too...

Product mix matching is not a problem... By this I mean you can use whom evers filler, then whom evers primer, then whom evers base and finally whom evers clear... All these can be by different manufactures and it should not be an issue as long as flash times are followed and the P sheets used.

I am sure more will chime in and reinforce what I have told you... As for the brand of choice.. that is up to you... do a search for SPI and you will see why I recommend it to people and use it myself exclusively now.

ken_c 12-23-2005 11:48 PM

acsteve,
Hmmmmm,
Lot's of 'absolutes' in Bondo Kings advice.

Etch is NOT crap. Neither is it outdated technology.
Filler over Epoxy vs Filler on bare metal - the jury is out on that one.
SPI? Probably good stuff but no personal experience. I do know that SPI is pushed a lot on this forum - Barry K of course, a major contributor here, is Mr SPI - so it's not surprising that others promote it. Nothing wrong with that but worth mentioning in case you don't know I think.

While you are unlikely to go wrong with Epoxy folowed by Primer/surfacer and BC/CC it ain't the only solution.
Do your homework. Shop around other forums for advice too.
Ken

BarryK 12-24-2005 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken_c
Etch is NOT crap. Neither is it outdated technology.
****************************************
I'm not hiding behind some name that can be anyone, Pretty easy to figure who I am.
So with that I'm saying Etch is "outdated crap."

Now if that is not so, why did a major settle 127 lawsuits against them in 3 days last year that were all proven to be all acid etch related.?
They sure could have used you!!!
127 X say an average of $50,000 to do each street rod???


Filler over Epoxy vs Filler on bare metal - the jury is out on that one.
*************************************************
Only for the uneducated!



Do your homework. Shop around other forums for advice too.
Ken

************************************************** *
I don't mean to be a P**** but I knew a week ago this was coming when I first saw your name on here.
Next step will be the guy that says he the Dupont rep like the forum your talking about.
Saying how great acid etch is with a bunch of misstatements.
I let it go on that forum because its small and don't really matter and its more of a pen pal club than anything else.
If you or a different name post that statement here I promise to correct each sentence.
Who ever wrote that on the other forum read about four tech sheets and put them together to sound impressive.

Got the funny feeling this an the Kirker deal is all related.
We will have a bunch of spineless cowards posting under all different names.
How does a person get so screwed up in the head to be this way?

Most of the people on here know who and what forum I'm talking about and for you that don't, I apologize.

Personally, I'm about ready to drive an hour north and knock the crap out of one of them, then I will post his address so anyone else can if they want.

S10Fan 12-24-2005 06:07 AM

"Barry K of course, a major contributor here, is Mr SPI - so it's not surprising that others promote it."

I wouldn't know Barry K if he walked up and slapped me in the face, but I do know SPI products. Hands down, SPI is the best base and clear I've ever had on any of my vehicles. Thankfully, others have shared their views about SPI on this forum. Otherwise the awesome body work on my latest project would have been covered with another so so product.

adtkart 12-24-2005 06:21 AM

"Barry K of course, a major contributor here"

Yes he is. "a major contributor here", of information. He has helped alot of people with information, from his vast knowledge of the field. He has not, however, pushed his product here, or bashed someone else's for that matter. Just recently, he recommended another product, when the question popped up about the best product for a certain project. He never mentioned his product. His products are promoted here by people that have used them for a good reason. They are "quality products", plain and simple.

Aaron

esty 12-24-2005 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BondoKing
As far as product brand goes... look here http://southernpolyurethanes.com/homepage.htm

one of his few colors, then his base too...

the above's not an unbiased recommendation...there are other alternatives that offer more for less....you may not be able to find SPI products, even if you want'd to use them...Barry doesn't sell the product online...you'll have to find a local retailer

if you're a novice and want to save a lot of money and still get a great product, friendly service and great support look HERE

i have no affiliation but have painted 2 cars using their products and they turn'd out fantastic....

good luck

acsteve 12-24-2005 07:37 AM

relax
 
I know you guys probably have a lot of history on this forum but...It is ok if you have different opinions and experiences. I like to have a heads up on potential problems and things to ponder. Still I have read through the forums on etch vs epoxy for rust prevention and adhesion to blasted metal. I still have not found a real consensise(spelling).

BarryK 12-24-2005 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acsteve
I know you guys probably have a lot of history on this forum but...It is ok if you have different opinions and experiences. I like to have a heads up on potential problems and things to ponder. Still I have read through the forums on etch vs epoxy for rust prevention and adhesion to blasted metal. I still have not found a real consensise(spelling).

*************************************************
Sorry to mess up your post but saw this coming a week ago.(long story)

You will be fine with the Nason, its a pretty good paint for the money.

If you want to use acid etch thats up to you.

If you can exchange it for Nason epoxy, I would if it were my car.

But either way will work and so will lacquer primer if you get my drift.

Epoxy over a good prep job would be your best protection.
Hope this helps.\
Barry

esty 12-24-2005 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acsteve
I know you guys probably have a lot of history on this forum but...It is ok if you have different opinions and experiences. I like to have a heads up on potential problems and things to ponder. Still I have read through the forums on etch vs epoxy for rust prevention and adhesion to blasted metal. I still have not found a real consensise(spelling).

when i decided to take the leap of faith and paint my 1st car, i spent a year visiting these type forums....after all was said i done, i found no consensus on what the best name brand is and it's unlikely that if i'd continue to read them for my lifetime that i ever would....

like everything else, what you use and how you use it is a matter of personal opinion...most aren't right or wrong when deciding which product to use....there is however a correct order in which to use those products and when...after that, it's all opinion

for the most part when it comes to the best name brand, you'll get no assistance if looking for what the majority uses...it's all personal when you get a recommendation of which is best...unfortunately, i don't know what's best cause i've not used every available product related to this industry...it's unlikely that anyone here has, so the only credible advise anyone can offer is regarding their actual experience with a specific name brand...if you throw out the most expensive and the cheapest, i think, given todays technology, most remaining, if not all, are probably created about equal...the major differences are price, service & availabilty

if you wait for a definate response, you'll never get your stuff painted

shine 12-24-2005 08:52 AM

there is absolutely no reason to use ect primer on a blasted car. the anchor pattern will be enough. in a few cases plastic media will not leave a sufficient anchor pattern and in those cases i prefer to sand the metal to prep it. in my opinion ect primer is way over rated. we managed to paint without it for many years so personally i don't use it. nason is a good second line paint. would'nt use it on a customers car but it's fine for a driver. you have a lot more freedom doing it for a hobby or on your own ride. when you do it for a living you cant afford to gamble. just my opinion.

kenseth17 12-24-2005 09:07 AM

Double post.

kenseth17 12-24-2005 09:08 AM

Kinda getting sick of people arguring over different paint brands on these forums since these new people have been showing up. Most brands I've used have worked fine as long as the product sheets were followed correctly. Even less expensive brands, as well as using a different manufacture of clear, primer and base. I do agree with bondo and barry though, I would only use etch in rare cases, like say a bare metal fabricated peice that has sat and is starting flash rust, and would still use epoxy primer over the etch primer (most of the time you can apply epoxy over etch, but read the product sheet to be sure). IMO the best method is to get rid of any rust by blasting or replacing, and get epoxy primer on the part right away, and don't even bother with etch. Years ago Icar was recommending a metal treatment or etch primer on bare metal followed by epoxy primer, but have skepped the etch for years and have not seen a problem, if what you are priming is rust free and sanded.

crashtech 12-24-2005 09:16 AM

I'm curious to know what the problem is with etch primer. I've always thought it was a viable alternative when metal conditioners cannot or will not be used. I imagine that too thick of an application would introduce a shrinkage problem, but used properly its adhesion to bare metal is excellent.

So what can a guy expect if he uses "self-etching" or "acid-etching" primer followed by a high quality urethane primer? I've not personally seen any negative results from this procedure.

shine 12-24-2005 10:07 AM

don't know crash. i think it comes down to where you started. was'nt much to choose from when i started. most every painter did the same thing. chemstrip , metal prep, bodywork and then start putting the lacquer to it. i never fell for the 40 coats of hand rubbed stuff. i always thought that was insane. personally i just never felt the need for it. just one more gallon of stuff to buy. after cleaning up with starblast i see no reason for it now. i'm on the fence on epoxy. it's always been a good product but does add quite a bit of cost but cant let that control a job. i have 2 jobs going now so i may epoxy the metal one also. i have a 57 vette thats been "home" done to death. it will require a serious barrier coat so it will get a epoxy/polyester build on it.i may gel coat it but have not decided yet. i've been painting close to 40 years but learn something everyday.


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