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Old 07-01-2010, 12:41 PM
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Toyota Celica Help

Helping my brother with his son's 2000 Toyota Celica. The nephew ran it wthout oil and kicked a rod through the block.

My brother bought a replacement long block from a local (Va Bch) engine builder. Everything checked out and without too much trouble the rebuilt engine was installed.

We have not been able to get it to run. We did get it to almost fire a couple times and got a good pop with some starting ether. Checked for fuel from the injectors and spark through the plugs. Read the codes with a scan tool - no codes reported (indicating that the computer does not have any faults from sensors??)

We have doubled checked everything, even pulled the engine back out to double check that the gear marking timing for the crankshaft position sensor was installed correctly. We also ran through the cam timing (dual cams) and everything checked OK. The guy that built the engine came by and double checked everything and insists everything is correct. He suggested replacing the crankshaft and camshaft position sensors. We did, still no joy.

The engine has been reinstalled and everything we can think of has been checked at least twice. The engine builder came over and used his scan tool to check for codes and got none.

Anybody have any good ideas or know any special things to consider on these toyota engines?

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Old 07-01-2010, 02:28 PM
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How about something as simple as the plug wires in the wrong order.
If you have fuel and spark it should fire if they are happening at the right time.

I would be suspicious of the timing belt but you said you had it checked by someone else as well. If you put a timing light on #1 plug, you should be able to see a timing mark while cranking.

Another thing would be to run a compression test this will give you an indication of if the timing belt is close. If you have decent compression it has to be fairly close.
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Old 07-01-2010, 05:43 PM
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If it has a distributor, with #1 cylinder at TDC on the power stroke, is the rotor pointing at terminal #1? It's easiest to see if you put a easy to read mark on the distributor body and remove the cap.
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Old 07-01-2010, 06:32 PM
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I was guessing no distributor since he said they replaced both a crank and cam sensor. Could be wrong, have seen some weird setups.

To the OP, I would not put much faith in the guy who told you to just replaces those sensors without testing them. If you have spark most likely they are ok. Most cars will run without the cam sensor.
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Old 07-01-2010, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T-bucket23
I was guessing no distributor
I'm guessing you're right, nothing shows up on a search for a cap.
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Old 07-02-2010, 07:34 PM
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Thanks for the response guys.

If this toy had a distributer and a timing mark we would have it timed corrrectly. Computer controls spark and fuel, relys on sensors (crank position, cam position, O2, MAF, etc) to get it right. Mechanically, we believe (very strongly) that we have the cam timing and the crank position sensor installed correctly. To the point we would have to see pictures that showed us we were wrong before we would pull the motor again. [We checked everything carefully and had it checked by the engine builder who specializes in these engines]

There are no plug wires, a coil pack on each plug gets signal from the computer, the wiring harness shape makes it impossible (reasonably so) to get them out of order.

Anybody really know toyotas?

I've looked for toy sites, but they focus on cold air kits, megaphone mufflers, and occasionally a turbo. Hard to find any real mechanics working on toys.
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Old 07-02-2010, 08:43 PM
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Is there a chance there is an anti-theft system interfering?

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Old 07-07-2010, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
Is there a chance there is an anti-theft system interfering?
We have checked and have been told there is no anti-theft system - there is an alarm system, but we have information that it is not connected to the engine management system.

We also have spark, fuel, and start circuits working - zero fault codes on the OBD II scan.

We would love to hear if someone knows that there is anti-theft and what to do about it.
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Old 07-07-2010, 11:10 AM
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Have you looked at the plugs and checked to be sure they are gaped properly. Sometimes the simple things get overlooked.

A compression test would be good to rule out an assembly issue. Also it would be interesting to see if you have any vacuum while cranking. There usually is a little and if not present could indicate an improperly installed intake gasket or bad valve timing.

If you have fuel and spark and they are happening at the proper time it should run.

Please dont spray any more starting fluid into your new engine, it is a good way to destroy it and proves nothing. I have seen vehicles with no spark fire on starting fluid. As well as being bad for the engine it can lead you assumptions that are not correct.
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Old 07-08-2010, 10:33 AM
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Plugs were checked and gapped to spec. New ones recommended by the builder were installed (after confirming gap to spec).

Compression test checked out at 150psi in all four cylinders.

Spark and fuel have been confirmed. Correct timing and mixture are controlled by ECM. Since there are no error codes, the ECM and sensors are good?

There is no way to check timing - no external marks to check with timimg light.

All we can check for fuel is we get pressure in the rail and the injectors spit fuel while cranking.

I do appreciate your ideas, keep in mind that my brother and I have both been working on cars (not professionally) for more than thirty five years. We have checked and double checked all of the usual suspects.

I'm fishing for some Toyota expertise, someone that has run into the particular faults that would keep this engine from starting. And/or someone who really knows how these ECMs work and how to check the ECM and sensors. (Although there are no error codes when we scan, we expect to find a bad sensor or a bad ECM - we need to know how to make that determination)
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Old 07-08-2010, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starnest

Spark and fuel have been confirmed. Correct timing and mixture are controlled by ECM. Since there are no error codes, the ECM and sensors are good?

All we can check for fuel is we get pressure in the rail and the injectors spit fuel while cranking.


I'm fishing for some Toyota expertise, someone that has run into the particular faults that would keep this engine from starting. And/or someone who really knows how these ECMs work and how to check the ECM and sensors. (Although there are no error codes when we scan, we expect to find a bad sensor or a bad ECM - we need to know how to make that determination)
I would not assume sensors as working just because you have spark and no codes. This is a bad assumption. Dont know if you have a scan tool, if you do you can look at both the cam and crank signal to be sure they are there and in phase.

Same with the fuel pressure. it needs to be checked with a gauge, I dont think it is your issue. It should however be eliminated.

The lack of codes is not a good assumption, a lot of tests do not run until the car is started and sees certain rpms.

Did you re-use the sensors from the old engine, or did you use different ones.

As far as a Toyota specific issue, most distributor-less ignition systems from that era work on the same principals, there really isnt any magic.

I have seen defective crank sensors exhibit the type of issue you are experiencing, it is not common but I have seen it.
If you did not use the old sensors, I would suggest you try them.
Only other thought at the moment, some cars have a removable magnet for the cam sensor, not sure if yours does, but if it does, you may want to look to be sure you moved it from teh old engine to the new one
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Old 07-11-2010, 01:09 PM
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Thanks for the reply.

I agree that a lack of codes is not a good assumption that all is well. However, we think it is reasonable to assume that when the ignition is turned on, and the starter is engaged that the ECM is getting good input from those sensors needed to set spark & fuel to start the car or it would generate an error code we could read with a scan tool (this has been done several times with two different scan tools - same result, no codes are reported). Our assumption is that the ECM is able to perform its start up diagnostic without errors (self diagnostics vary widely and we have no special knowledge of what that might entail for this ECM).

Our scan tool(s) did not enable reading crank and cam signal (requires the engine to be running?). Basic voltage checks for both indicate circuits to sensors are good.

We did reuse the sensors from the old engine, and have subsequently replaced the crank and cam position sensors.

There was a sprocket on the crank snout that we had to reuse from the old engine (it may have a magnet - not sure), it is marked with "F" for front, keyed to shaft, and we confirmed it is installed IAW pictures we downloaded for this engine. This sprocket interacts (magnetically?) with the crank position sensor.

We will check for a removable magnet for the cams, nothing that we read or saw would suggest that there is one, also the engine came with the complete cam/valvetrain installed.

As for fuel pressure, we have confirmed that fuel delivery is adequate for starting and running an engine at idle, if there is a fuel delivery problem it would have to be at higher than idle engine speed.

For all that have replied, we have followed up on every comment (or at least backtracked what/how we have done to figure this out and get the engine running).
If my responses sound like we have discounted your comments, please realize that we value them greatly, but we are trying to progress this discussion beyond the simple stuff we have tried and get to some specific knowledge applicable to this engine and problem. Again, my brother and I have a lot of experience working on cars and have tried all the usual small details that can cause this problem. We have even cleaned and reconnected all the ground circuits, checked every inch of wiring and connectors, and beat our heads repeatedly against the engine block hoping that the car would submit and start or our brains would by some miracle become smart enough to figure this out.

The irony is that my brother will now have to take the car to a dealer, who no doubt will first remove the engine (because they didn't get paid to replace it) in order to solve the problem. There's no telling what they might tell us the problem is - but I'll bet it is something we have checked.
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Old 07-11-2010, 01:43 PM
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not to big on Toyota's but i had a newer gm that was doing the same double check every thing is plugged in the gm i had the problem with had a set of grounds running into a clip that had to be bolted down i just kinda ignored it at first wanting to start the engine before i locked everything down and those grounds prevented it



edit thats what i get for typing slow you already responded about grounds
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Old 07-11-2010, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starnest
Thanks for the reply.

I agree that a lack of codes is not a good assumption that all is well. However, we think it is reasonable to assume that when the ignition is turned on, and the starter is engaged that the ECM is getting good input from those sensors needed to set spark & fuel to start the car or it would generate an error code we could read with a scan tool (this has been done several times with two different scan tools - same result, no codes are reported). Our assumption is that the ECM is able to perform its start up diagnostic without errors (self diagnostics vary widely and we have no special knowledge of what that might entail for this ECM).

Our scan tool(s) did not enable reading crank and cam signal (requires the engine to be running?). Basic voltage checks for both indicate circuits to sensors are good.

We did reuse the sensors from the old engine, and have subsequently replaced the crank and cam position sensors.

There was a sprocket on the crank snout that we had to reuse from the old engine (it may have a magnet - not sure), it is marked with "F" for front, keyed to shaft, and we confirmed it is installed IAW pictures we downloaded for this engine. This sprocket interacts (magnetically?) with the crank position sensor.

We will check for a removable magnet for the cams, nothing that we read or saw would suggest that there is one, also the engine came with the complete cam/valvetrain installed.

As for fuel pressure, we have confirmed that fuel delivery is adequate for starting and running an engine at idle, if there is a fuel delivery problem it would have to be at higher than idle engine speed.

For all that have replied, we have followed up on every comment (or at least backtracked what/how we have done to figure this out and get the engine running).
If my responses sound like we have discounted your comments, please realize that we value them greatly, but we are trying to progress this discussion beyond the simple stuff we have tried and get to some specific knowledge applicable to this engine and problem. Again, my brother and I have a lot of experience working on cars and have tried all the usual small details that can cause this problem. We have even cleaned and reconnected all the ground circuits, checked every inch of wiring and connectors, and beat our heads repeatedly against the engine block hoping that the car would submit and start or our brains would by some miracle become smart enough to figure this out.

The irony is that my brother will now have to take the car to a dealer, who no doubt will first remove the engine (because they didn't get paid to replace it) in order to solve the problem. There's no telling what they might tell us the problem is - but I'll bet it is something we have checked.
You need something that can actually look at teh cam and crank signals.
It is odd that you have spark and fuel but it wont run. I know you have checked the timing belt or chain 10 times already so I wount suggest it
again lol.

Th only other thing I can think of is possibly 2 connectors that could be swapped. A wiring diagram with colors could help you validate that they are all correct
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Old 07-12-2010, 10:43 AM
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Thanks again - We have triple checked the ground connections - could still be a ground problem in one of the circuit connectors, but visually they all seem to be good and a circuit fault in one of those connectors should (?) show as a trouble code when we scan.

All connectors are in correct place, they are almost impossible to mix up because of how they are positioned in the harness, number of pins, keys, etc.

We think that there is something wrong with the ECM. But, that doesn't make sense, the car ran fine until it kicked a rod through the block.
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