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Old 07-28-2007, 04:40 PM
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Tragic P51 crash at Oshkosh

Two P51's, a D model and an A model collided while landing, one pilot killed.

http://www.aero-tv.net/index.cfm?vid...b-6f3b0f149c4d

P51A was Precious Metal II
P51D was Stang

May be a bit off subject for this forum, but some of us come from aviation backgrounds both military and civilian, it is a sad day for all.

Vince

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Last edited by 302 Z28; 07-28-2007 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 07-28-2007, 04:53 PM
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That is sad. I always have a good time when I can make it to the air show. Very traagic.
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Old 07-28-2007, 04:57 PM
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Tragic, just tragic. But you know, it isn't as safe as sitting here at my computer, people die flying planes, especially doing stunts and such. That is the chance you take to get the rush.

Brian
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Old 07-28-2007, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
Tragic, just tragic. But you know, it isn't as safe as sitting here at my computer, people die flying planes, especially doing stunts and such. That is the chance you take to get the rush.

Brian
Very true Brian, but Oshkosh has become increasingly dangerous. A few years ago there was a takeoff accident involving Howard Pardue and his Corsair. He was lucky to survive. The Commemorative Air Force has said they will quit flying at Oshkosh. What they desperately need is an air traffic controller during these events.

Vince
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Old 07-28-2007, 05:10 PM
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heard about it yesterday right after it happened on one of the corvette forums complete with pictures. watched the news and heard nothing. i go to the reno air races every year, about 4 years ago on the first day one of the smaller formula planes crashed during a race on the course right in front of the stands, nothing left of plane or pilot. it didnt make the news and nothing was mentioned by the announcer at the event then or the next 3 days of the event, if you didnt see it you would never know it happened, i saw it. i thought it was strange they didnt acknowledge the pilot died and give a little uligy or dedication with a little info about his life but i guess they dont want the bad publicity.
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Old 07-28-2007, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 302 Z28
....... What they desperately need is an air traffic controller during these events.

Vince
no atc thats asking for accidents.thoughts and prayers go out for the family of the pilot who was killed.
Shane
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Old 07-28-2007, 11:01 PM
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actually guys atc does not control air traffic around any airport, the way it works is say you are taking off from lax, first ground control directs you everywhere in the airport except active runways. when you get tp the head of the line and are ready for takeoff they hand you over to the tower, the tower gives you permission to cross the threshold of an active runway and take off and they control you all the way to the end of the airspace the airport controls, at my county airport this is 5 miles out and 3000 ft, at a place like lax it could be 30 or 40 miles and 10,000ft, once you leave airport airspace you are handed over to atc which has control of you until you reach your destination airports airspace then the process reverses, atc to tower tower to ground all of which are faa. when there is an airshow the airport is closed, no trafic in or out and the tower controls nothing and no traffic is allowed in the airports airspace. the airshow will have what is called an airboss who controls all airshow ground an air traffic. he is not faa but is affiliated with the show sponsors. so those 2 planes did have controllers ( they control the planes- turn 270, turn final, land on runway 18, etc ) they do not fly the planes, the pilot does that. basically it was a traffic accident. "i was going down the road and that car hit me" it was that drivers fault. its the pilots responsibility to " see and avoid " thats why they call it pilot error.










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Old 07-29-2007, 08:25 AM
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I caught this on the news a few times, but didn't listen too close. Oshkosh is about an hour south of me. I think they said this was the first accident during the airshow in 15 years. I know there have been accidents over the years, weather mechanical problems flying into the show or whatever, but not during the airshow. I haven't been out to eaa yet, think it costs something like $33 a day to attend.
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Old 07-29-2007, 12:39 PM
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There is no way I would live that close without checking it out at least once. Get over there!

Brian
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Old 07-29-2007, 04:58 PM
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The only reason this accident happened is because they were trying to land in formation , both landing at the same time.
Why do they do that?
Is there a good reason for this?
I've always wondered about this, why they take-off and land together.
Shouldn't they be trying to minimize any risks instead of complicating things?
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Old 07-29-2007, 08:23 PM
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No way was that the first crash in 15 years at Oshkosh. Howard Pardue and his Corsair got tangled up with another Corsair during takeoff. They make the dual takeoff's and landing's because that is how they did it during WWII except for the carrier planes. I totally agree that it needs to stop.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...09/ai_n8860122

Vince

Last edited by 302 Z28; 07-29-2007 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 07-30-2007, 11:33 AM
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They weren't stunting, they were landing in formation and there is no reason for that to be dangerous and it is a nice show for fans. Something went wrong unexpectedly and there was an accident. Hopefully the investigators will be able to pinpoint the problem.

We also lost Jim LeRoy (Bulldog) this weekend at Dayton, he was actually in a manouver when he crashed.

A very sad weekend for the airshow community.
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Old 07-30-2007, 05:18 PM
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Way to early to tell what caused this tragic accident. It is easy to form an opinion from this very short and limited film clip. It is easy to ASSUME this was a planned formation landing attempt that went bad. Being an old pilot with probably 4000 formation take offs and 2000 formation landings (some with three and 4 aircraft), and no problems with any of them, I probably could critique what I saw on the film clip with some degree of accuracy, but nothing I would bet on with so little information.

First, the aircraft on the left wing is very high and back from the lead aircraft when first seen in the film. In fact, the pilot would have a difficult time seeing that aircraft from that position. As the two aircraft continue toward the runway, the wingman(?) is dropping faster and gaining rapidly on the leader(?). At this point, wing tip clearance is a must, but he obviously did not have it since the right wing contacted the lead aircraft's tail section with enough force to knock a chunk out of it as well as pitch it on its nose. The rapid pitch up and over is probably because the pilot violently yanked back on the stick the try to clear the other airplane but the right wing was tangled under the lead aircraft causing the flip over onto its back just before impact.

My theory is they were not attempting to land in formation but one air craft was landing from a straight in approach and the other was from a turn in to a short final approach. The straight in aircraft was hidden from view of the turning and descending aircraft (the high and left side airplane, thought to be the wingman) and that pilot did not see the other aircraft until near touchdown. By that time it was too late. This scenario has been played over and over again through out aviation history. Control towers personnel are supposed to be watching for this, but are not always able to see every thing in a busy environment. At Oshkosh, there may not have been an actual control tower and it is a busy time for all the pilots.

Formation take offs and landings are an operational necessity for military fighter aircraft. When it is necessary to launch and recover larger numbers of aircraft, then launching in formations can be as high as 4 time faster than doing it in singles. Recovering these aircraft in formation can be twice as fast when landing in pairs , three times in threes and 4 times in 4s. Why is this important you say? Fighter forces are sent into combat in high numbers and these jets gobble fuel at an alarming rate. The first planes to launch can not wait around for the last guy if you are going in singles. Then at the end of the mission, all the planes are low on fuel and you must get them on the ground as fast as possible, thus formation landings. All of this is during weather operations (Instrument Flight Rules). If it is clear and a bunch (Visual Flight Rules), formation landings are not required.

Trees
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