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  #2416 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2011, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLNOLAN
Yep, You got it Bob. What took you so long? HaHa. You have the floor. Here is a link that tells a little of the story.;http://americanclassicars.com/tag/dodge-dart-swinger/
What took me so long, I didn't have a clue on Dave's question. I never watch Ricky Nelson on TV, we have company, so I had just seen the question about 3pm.

Dinger I looked for that part too, but gave up an thought Nolon was adding to the story.

My question, Of course you guys know I like to start way back so here we go.
Easy question what car first used in production a V-12? What year? And what else was a first in this engine?

Bob

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  #2417 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2011, 09:02 PM
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1916 Packard, it had horizontal valves.
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  #2418 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2011, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinger
1916 Packard, it had horizontal valves.
Lets say you are right on one. I would say which one, but after reading you spent an hour looking in google, and I thought I was the only one that did that.LOL For right now I will just say you have one right, one real close, one not in the ballpark, but close to it.

Bob

No matter how much you push the envelope,

it'll still be stationery.
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  #2419 (permalink)  
Old 02-12-2011, 07:16 AM
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This Part?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 35terraplane
What took me so long, I didn't have a clue on Dave's question. I never watch Ricky Nelson on TV, we have company, so I had just seen the question about 3pm.

Dinger I looked for that part too, but gave up an thought Nolon was adding to the story.

My question, Of course you guys know I like to start way back so here we go.
Easy question what car first used in production a V-12? What year? And what else was a first in this engine?

Bob
HaHa, No lagniappe. This is the Bible part;

The 383 Dart�s bare knuckles approach didn�t attract a six way power seat crowd but it lit up everyone who had a need for speed and it made true believers out of a lot of folks who came to Mr. Norm�s to trade in their Fords and Chevys. �When a fellow came with a GTO or a Mustang or they came in with a Plymouth, we had a Bible we kept on the parts department, we made him swear allegiance and admit to his mistake. The customers went along with it, we took pictures of them, they made fun, they swore they would never buy another Chevy or Ford, that they would come and buy and a lot of them did. 90% of them all came back and bought their cars from us.� Laughs �Mr. Norm.�

Nolan
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  #2420 (permalink)  
Old 02-13-2011, 09:26 PM
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First V12

According to my research, in 1916 Packard put 2 - 6 cyl engines together to produce the Twin 6. Now comes the weird part. (I found this in a European magazine, and the on-line translation service leaves just a bit to be desired!) but according to the translation, the 3 spd gearbox was BETWEEN the two banks of cylinders. I suspect the translation service of being a bit "off"!

(An earlier guess about valve placement and orientation referred to one of Auburn's methods of cost-cutting in making a V-12)
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Old 02-13-2011, 10:00 PM
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first V-12 (redux)

According to another source, Packard brought out the V-12 (or "twin 6") in May 1915 but some still called it a 1916 model! And (I was pretty sure my on-line translation was screwy!) it had roller lifters!

BTW- The first US President to be driven to his inauguration was Warren Harding - in a Packard Twin 6
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  #2422 (permalink)  
Old 02-14-2011, 07:10 AM
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Get Well

Dave, Good to see you back, hope all is well. Nolan
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  #2423 (permalink)  
Old 02-14-2011, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave57210
According to another source, Packard brought out the V-12 (or "twin 6") in May 1915 but some still called it a 1916 model! And (I was pretty sure my on-line translation was screwy!) it had roller lifters!

BTW- The first US President to be driven to his inauguration was Warren Harding - in a Packard Twin 6
Dave you and dinger have the right answer on the car, you both said 1916, so I will give both of you that, but that 1915 engine had one more first, it wasn't roller lifters, and it had nothing to do with the valves.
To save you some looking in 1916 they came out with detachable heads as you had to pay $ 450.00 more for them.

Dave glad to have you back.

Bob
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Old 02-14-2011, 02:19 PM
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Dave, take a turn at the next one. I have to go help clean house, it's Valentines day and we're both home...
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  #2425 (permalink)  
Old 02-14-2011, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinger
Dave, take a turn at the next one. I have to go help clean house, it's Valentines day and we're both home...
Hold on there you guys haven't got the third part of my question. You got Packard, I gave you the year, but the third part of the question was what else was a first on the 1915 Packard.

dinger you will have to tell your wife she will have to clean by herself, as you have to answer the trivia question. Tell her you will take her out for dinner tonite.

Bob
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  #2426 (permalink)  
Old 02-16-2011, 05:17 PM
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Recap

OK - Lets recap where we are on this. We all are in agreement that the subject car is a "1916" (Came out in May 1915) Packard V-12 called the twin six

Various thoughts have been posted about what was 'new" on it.

It had an aluminum crankcase, with two separate iron cylinder blocks. It had a thin crankshaft with only 3 main bearings, and needed "essentially" no counterweights on the crankshaft as a V-12 is perfectly balanced by definition. It seems to have been a 60 degree V engine

The V-12 Packard was the inspiration for Enzo Ferrari, who loved the smooth power output, the lightness (no counterweights) as well as the sound, and resulted in Enzo producing the V-12 in all his "serious" cars.

The very first ones did not have removable cylinder heads (Those came a few months later, and as late as 1917 according to one source) - which makes me wonder how the got the valves into them during assembly, never mind how they serviced the engine in an era when it was necessary to remove the heads and scrape out huge carbon deposits and regrind valves quite often.

It had roller lifters, with the valves riding directly on the lifters. All valves were inboard (towards the center of the engine)

It had separate ignition systems for each bank of cylinders, with one carb mounted between the two banks. Ignition was from a battery recharged by a generator. The was a separate circuit-breaker for each "ignition timer" and distributor, although pictures show one centrally-mounted (at the front of the engine) "thingy" that seems to have distributors coming out of each side

My original translation of a euro mag said that the gearbox was between the banks of cylinders - but that was a very poor translation. In fact Packard had, until then, used a front engine and rear transaxle - this was a first FOR PACKARD but not for others in that Packard mounted the gearbox to the engine instead of to the rear axle. Some reports say it was all one casting, like some tractors use. Reports also noted that a gearbox was hardly needed at all as it would accelerate smoothly from 3 mph in high gear.

It had aluminum pistons (according to some reports) and the pistons had separate oil control and compression rings.

And so far I have not found anything else that was new or innovative about it, and Bob is giggling himself silly about having stumped the zillion or so world-wide experts on this board. (Well, done, Bob!)
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  #2427 (permalink)  
Old 02-16-2011, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave57210
OK - Lets recap where we are on this. We all are in agreement that the subject car is a "1916" (Came out in May 1915) Packard V-12 called the twin six

Various thoughts have been posted about what was 'new" on it.

It had an aluminum crankcase, with two separate iron cylinder blocks. It had a thin crankshaft with only 3 main bearings, and needed "essentially" no counterweights on the crankshaft as a V-12 is perfectly balanced by definition. It seems to have been a 60 degree V engine

The V-12 Packard was the inspiration for Enzo Ferrari, who loved the smooth power output, the lightness (no counterweights) as well as the sound, and resulted in Enzo producing the V-12 in all his "serious" cars.

The very first ones did not have removable cylinder heads (Those came a few months later, and as late as 1917 according to one source) - which makes me wonder how the got the valves into them during assembly, never mind how they serviced the engine in an era when it was necessary to remove the heads and scrape out huge carbon deposits and regrind valves quite often.

It had roller lifters, with the valves riding directly on the lifters. All valves were inboard (towards the center of the engine)

It had separate ignition systems for each bank of cylinders, with one carb mounted between the two banks. Ignition was from a battery recharged by a generator. The was a separate circuit-breaker for each "ignition timer" and distributor, although pictures show one centrally-mounted (at the front of the engine) "thingy" that seems to have distributors coming out of each side

My original translation of a euro mag said that the gearbox was between the banks of cylinders - but that was a very poor translation. In fact Packard had, until then, used a front engine and rear transaxle - this was a first FOR PACKARD but not for others in that Packard mounted the gearbox to the engine instead of to the rear axle. Some reports say it was all one casting, like some tractors use. Reports also noted that a gearbox was hardly needed at all as it would accelerate smoothly from 3 mph in high gear.

It had aluminum pistons (according to some reports) and the pistons had separate oil control and compression rings.

And so far I have not found anything else that was new or innovative about it, and Bob is giggling himself silly about having stumped the zillion or so world-wide experts on this board. (Well, done, Bob!)
Dave I was going to send you a PM to see how you were doing, it looks like you can still type, but then they didn't work on your arm.
I gave you and dinger 1916 because your source said that's what it was, mine said 1915. So i'm working with a 1915 engine, my source said the removable heads were from 1916, as a option of $450.00.
Now in all the information you have just stated, you hit on what I was looking for, which was a first in the industry, of all that you gave us can you name that first?

Bob

By the way, I took this question from a book called Cars. There are three books in the set, this book is for cars from 1886 to 1930. I'm not very far into the book, but there are 230 pages, and I have had this set for 40 years, I always wondered what I would do with it.
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  #2428 (permalink)  
Old 02-16-2011, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35terraplane
....what else was a first on the 1915 Packard.
First 2-door hardtop?

First carburetor air cleaner?

First Packard with left-hand drive?

First American car copied by communist Russia?

First Packard made after 1914?

??????
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  #2429 (permalink)  
Old 02-16-2011, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe G
First 2-door hardtop?

First carburetor air cleaner?

First Packard with left-hand drive?

First American car copied by communist Russia?

First Packard made after 1914?

??????
Nope Joe, Dave gave me the answer he just didn't know it, I don't think.
So it's in is run down, I just want the name of the first.

Bob

Joe I'm sitting here and it hit me, your answer on the first Packard made after 1914, you are right on that, but not what I want, the others are not the right answers as far as what i'm looking for.

Bob

Last edited by 35terraplane; 02-16-2011 at 06:30 PM. Reason: add
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  #2430 (permalink)  
Old 02-16-2011, 08:29 PM
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Down draft carb? As in first one used on the Packard?
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