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Old 03-23-2013, 02:51 PM
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Thanx to my virus and malware protection, your link to the "new tractor possibly" site yields a "warning - attack site" message warning one & all to stay away at all costs

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Old 03-23-2013, 11:43 PM
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Thanx to my virus and malware protection, your link to the "new tractor possibly" site yields a "warning - attack site" message warning one & all to stay away at all costs
ya, i got issue yesterday as well, i reported it, and from just checking, looks like issue has been resolved and all is fine. not much else i can do beyond making this notation. just a user like most others. most forums i visit, end up getting nailed every now and then, from a rash of sudden spammers to other. not much can be done, besides dealing with issues and fixing them as they come up. just like fixing issues with vehicles to everything else in life.
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Old 03-26-2013, 01:49 PM
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I having worked as a heavy equipment mechanic for over 35 years I would like to add to this. 1st point is look at what almost every piece of AG. equipment and almost every piece of heavy equipment in the world uses for power. Diesel for lots of reasons. What moves a piece of equipment? Torque and a lot of it. Here is where a diesel shines. The ability to run for extended periods of time at not just full throttle but at full torque output as well. And yes some gasoline engines come close to what a diesel will do, And the operative word here is close. Most notably would be the gas engines used in heliocopters in there early years. The drawback to those are the really short TBO's (Time between overhauls) 2,500 hrs at the most. And very expensive to rebuild to boot. Whereas diesels in the Ag and construction industrys often see 10,000 hrs or more before overhaul. Add to that the one factor that keeps diesels firmly in the equipment of the world is they are very efficient for the torque produced and fuel burned they are hard to beat. One type of engine that does do that (Beat the diesel) Is a gas turbine. And they can come in small packages with high hp outputs. But they are hugely expensive to build and to maintain. If that wasn't the case then why aren't they used more. They too have short TBO's compared to diesels and are probably way to complex to put out in the field plowing. Not to mention the dust would kill them real fast. I do have quite a bit of experience with turbines as I used to work for GE in their marine propulsion division. The perfect environment for a turbine in there isn't much dust to deal with. But they are hardly used in marine propulsion. Why too expensive to operate.

Number 2 Are you going to drive this ag. tractor with hydraulics? Have you computed in the frictional losses from that many hydraulic pumps and motors? If you are going to have a drive motor in each wheel then the losses would be staggering. I think that you would need closer to 800 of a 1000 hp to function. One thought that comes to mind and would meet most of your requirements would be electrical drive. That way You could have several small generator sets that for cost reasons and the ability to sync together and to have variable speed would almost have to be DC generators. With dc drive motors in the wheels. The real problem with either electric or hydraulic drive is the cost. Hydraulic motors and pumps are very expensive to buy and the so are electric motors and generators. So that leaves mechanical drive. Lots of chains and sprockets or shafts and belt's to drive that many wheels, That to sounds pretty expensive too. And very labor intensive to keep running. Have You ever been around a baler of a combine. It takes a lot to keep them running. Lots of gears and pulleys and chains and belts. And costs with all of them. And ultimately cost is everything because you have to be able to sell your product, unless this is just for you. I am NOT saying this to discourage you far far from it. Almost every successful invention ever made has come from inside the industry that it was meant for. Racing is a good example for the forum we are on now. Racers gave us seat belts, rearview mirrors, high speed tires including radials, dry sump oiling systems and many more. So I am not discouraging you at all. I am just trying to give you some things to think about. And one of the things I see is that you will almost have to redesign this to use a larger engine and it will probably end up being a diesel. I do know what I'm talking about here as I have successfully prototyped many mechanical products over the years including some electrical products. I have also wrote a regular advice column on finding someone to prototype products and how to do prototyping yourself for the web site American Inventor Spot. And that was part of the TV show American Inventor. I don't want to see you fail, but also don't want to see you spend money you don't have to. I really hope this helps Bill
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Old 03-26-2013, 04:59 PM
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I having worked as a heavy equipment mechanic for over 35 years I would like to add to this. 1st point is look at what almost every piece of AG. equipment and almost every piece of heavy equipment in the world uses for power. Diesel for lots of reasons. What moves a piece of equipment? Torque and a lot of it. Here is where a diesel shines. The ability to run for extended periods of time at not just full throttle but at full torque output as well. And yes some gasoline engines come close to what a diesel will do, And the operative word here is close. Most notably would be the gas engines used in heliocopters in there early years. The drawback to those are the really short TBO's (Time between overhauls) 2,500 hrs at the most. And very expensive to rebuild to boot. Whereas diesels in the Ag and construction industrys often see 10,000 hrs or more before overhaul. Add to that the one factor that keeps diesels firmly in the equipment of the world is they are very efficient for the torque produced and fuel burned they are hard to beat. One type of engine that does do that (Beat the diesel) Is a gas turbine. And they can come in small packages with high hp outputs. But they are hugely expensive to build and to maintain. If that wasn't the case then why aren't they used more. They too have short TBO's compared to diesels and are probably way to complex to put out in the field plowing. Not to mention the dust would kill them real fast. I do have quite a bit of experience with turbines as I used to work for GE in their marine propulsion division. The perfect environment for a turbine in there isn't much dust to deal with. But they are hardly used in marine propulsion. Why too expensive to operate.

Number 2 Are you going to drive this ag. tractor with hydraulics? Have you computed in the frictional losses from that many hydraulic pumps and motors? If you are going to have a drive motor in each wheel then the losses would be staggering. I think that you would need closer to 800 of a 1000 hp to function. One thought that comes to mind and would meet most of your requirements would be electrical drive. That way You could have several small generator sets that for cost reasons and the ability to sync together and to have variable speed would almost have to be DC generators. With dc drive motors in the wheels. The real problem with either electric or hydraulic drive is the cost. Hydraulic motors and pumps are very expensive to buy and the so are electric motors and generators. So that leaves mechanical drive. Lots of chains and sprockets or shafts and belt's to drive that many wheels, That to sounds pretty expensive too. And very labor intensive to keep running. Have You ever been around a baler of a combine. It takes a lot to keep them running. Lots of gears and pulleys and chains and belts. And costs with all of them. And ultimately cost is everything because you have to be able to sell your product, unless this is just for you. I am NOT saying this to discourage you far far from it. Almost every successful invention ever made has come from inside the industry that it was meant for. Racing is a good example for the forum we are on now. Racers gave us seat belts, rearview mirrors, high speed tires including radials, dry sump oiling systems and many more. So I am not discouraging you at all. I am just trying to give you some things to think about. And one of the things I see is that you will almost have to redesign this to use a larger engine and it will probably end up being a diesel. I do know what I'm talking about here as I have successfully prototyped many mechanical products over the years including some electrical products. I have also wrote a regular advice column on finding someone to prototype products and how to do prototyping yourself for the web site American Inventor Spot. And that was part of the TV show American Inventor. I don't want to see you fail, but also don't want to see you spend money you don't have to. I really hope this helps Bill
ya pretty much mirroring my own thoughts. sadly, i do not have the experience as you, so i have had to down play my own thoughts. and thanks for helping re-affirming them.

ya, i have kinda gotten away from turbine engines. i really had no choice but not look at them, due to small dimensions and HP they produced.

i am kinda hard pressed gas vs diesel at moment, i know i would prefer diesel. but i am so far out of my experience, and knowledge, of engines, that trying to understand, it is to point, i am making it up as i go. perhaps bad, perhaps good. no way for me to judge. without input. and i thank you for that.

i think i can still get my 20 inches width x 20 inches tall. for most part i been heading in direction of, trying to find a single large engine, to drive 60 foot width tractor. with say up to 16 plus wheels more likey 24 to 32 wheels possibly. but as i am finding out. that many HP of an engine just not gong to happen.

BUT....
i still have an option. i already have 4 sections that make up 60 feet. i can place that say 600HP, up into 4 smaller engines. so now i am looking more at say 150HP engine to fit in a 20" inches wide x 20" inches tall. this is being more favorable for this SSTT and what engines are out there on the market already.

ya i would be duplicating everything 4 different times per each 60 foot errr for each 13 foot section. but that really is not all end. for smaller fields that can be a large plus. and for larger fields, being able to say hookup another 13 foot section, for say 73 feet. would not be that bad on additional cost vs having to buy a complete new set of tractors and implements. for just that little bit more. extra duplication also allows for "backup" if one engine goes down, maybe there is enough from other engines to keep on going.

while i was hoping to avoid above going with a single larger HP engine, *hey i had to see if it was possible, i did not know any better at the time*

=============

ya i know about hydraulic issues, more so if all the wheels hub motors were hydraulic. the pure amount of GPM (gallons per minute) would quickly over whelm most things. and by the time i upped the inside diameter of pipe, and then upped the hydrualic pumps to produce a high enough pressure at the higher GPM. i would be getting into some major friction losses just trying to move that amount of fluid, let alone trying to place regulators on everything. to try and even out both pressure and GPM going to each wheel.

no way to use shafts, sprockets, chains, gears. would be a bloody nightmare on this tractor. and would cause to much slop at things furthest away from the engine. there would most likely be binding issues, twisting shaft issues, etc...

==========
electrical wheel hub motors. give me a few more PRO's vs hydraulic. more so in finite control of RPM's and torque. i am hesitant of both A/C and D/C. and current doings out there. i have full control over the generator, and wheel hub motors. so i can run at any volts, any amount of phases, at any frequency i want. along with at any amps i want. and in all thought. i think i am going to use that to my benefit. of not needing to tie to a given standard of.... 110v, or 220v or 12,24,36,72 volts
the only exception is needing a standard 12V to deal with electronics, and road lights.
to above it will be a variable volts/amps/frequency at a certain amount of phases across the entire machine. with a 12v beside it.

if i do not approach things as dynamically changing volts/amps/frequency across entire machine. then i don't think i will have a chance of pulling things off. at least for the generator that would supply electricity to wheel hub motors.

there most likely will be inline filters (think regulators for hydraulics or fluid or gas), but to control amount of bad electricity (odd frequency, odd amps, odd volts)

to be honest i am not there yet, to actually figure electrical all out.
===========

engines with generator/s and electrical wheel hub motors.

i am actually not worried about torque vs RPM's. torque x RPMs / 5210 = HP correct? i mean as long as i reach my HP requirement, and an engine that can withstand continuous heavy load placed on it. i really do not care what RPM's or torque it produces. like i said, i am not trying tie myself to a standard of 110v, 220v, 12,24, etc... volts. the only exception is the 12v that run along side. but i am looking for a dynamically changing variable volts/amps/frequency, at a given number of phases.

i am not really looking at regenerative braking, while that would be a plus. i am not counting on it to recharge batteries like a regular electrical car out there.

=================
at this point in time, cost is last on list, it is just me at this point in time. and needing a team. but at this point it is concept, and trying to see what could work. and what would be needed to make it work. multi other things need to happen before cost of things will most likely get involved. to see were corners might be cut, or something else done. no real reason to have some bean counter saying OMG that is to expensive and creating an up war over things. when there no direct way to get a estimated cost atleast by myself. it is the other folks that are needed though in a team. that i am seriously lacking at moment.

ya electrical wheel hub motors are expensive, but so are physical transmissions, final drives. pick your poison. some areas are going to be more costly than current age tractors, while others it will be zero. and its not just tractor but also portions of implement costs, that might become null and void. with this SSTT and implements to go with it. that i am hoping will offset things enough to make it near current age tractors and the implements that go with them. there a lot of metal and weight that should be removed from the overall setup compared to current age tractors and implements.
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:26 PM
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You say cost is last on your list. If your intention is to build something competitive with the other Ag. tractors out there then it should be first on your list. And here is why, everybody in the business world has to be able to make a profit to survive. If your tractor costs 2 times what your nearest competition does because of the costs associated with up to 15 drive motors and generators or hydraulics or whatever. Then Your tractor has to make slightly more than 2 times the production in order to entice someone to buy yours over your competition. or it won't sell. Of course this rule doesn't always apply. A good example would be if John Deere was to build this product instead of you they would sell some simply because they would be John Deere green. So You must always keep the costs of a product in mind when trying to bring a product to market. I'm not talking about development costs but production costs and operating costs for the end user. I will take Caterpiller tractor company as a example here. Most folks don't know that Caterpiller started out as a offshoot of the John Deere company. (Do some reading on line about the Holt tractor company and the history of Caterpiller). And what We call a dozer today started out as a Ag. tractor. In a effort to put more horsepower to the ground, But alas it was considered to be too costly to use tracks for Ag. use. Now fast forward to today and you will see Caterpiller Ag. tractors being used on farms around the world. And some of them use rubber tracks (Challenger Tractors come to mind.) John Deere has also joined this game by offering rubber tracked Ag. tractors for sale too in recent years. But neither one sells very good. Because of their complexity for one thing and the cost of building them is higher than a wheeled tractor, And that means they cost more at the dealership. And speaking of Caterpiller tractor co. Cat has been working on electric drive dozers for some time now. And according to them one of the big motivations behind electric drive is emissions. A engine running at a constant speed is much easier to get in to emissions standards. And remember Cat builds locomotive engines for the railroad. And they are having problems with them. But after reading your post I think you have come to the same conclusions about powering this tractor. I have been involved in prototyping some very large and expensive equipment in the past. One of those items was directional drilling machines. A very cheep directional drilling machine would cost 5 to 6 million dollars to build and that is for a finished product. To prototype one could run 2 or 3 times that much. So what do you do. Well to save money We built scale models of the finished product. To test the viability of the product and how to produce them at a low cost. This was with 3 engineering company's on board. And the owner of the company I was working for was a engineer too. So you might give some thought to producing a scale working prototype to test your theory on before you commit to a full size version. A scale prototype is also very handy for presentations to prospective investors. Hope this helps Bill
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Old 03-27-2013, 04:21 AM
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i have to disagree with a good amount of your last post Ironpony.

first one person at this moment in time. and you are trying to tell me, it is more worth it, to spend a good amount of time tracking down every single point of cost. sounds like a joke to me. even if i had a team, you are still telling me, that you would rather have the team waste half there time tracking down costs of things, vs just getting it done in the first place, and what ever is come up may not even get used, due to it does not work out for that particular idea / set of parts? that really does not make a lot of sense to me.

ya eventally when it gets past a prototype stage. and then getting near final product ya, cost is a factor. but man, sounds like someone is trying to make an excuse to keep there job at moment. and it sounds like it is time for re-assignment into something else and if they can not change it is time to wave bye bye.

============
seriously protyping on a smaller scale. i would initially agree with you at first. but really? there is a huge difference, between small scale and a larger scale. when it comes down to wire sizes, pipes for fluid and gas, the entire dynamics completely puts everything into a different set of variables that get spit out. by forumlas. and it is not just simply oh make a smaller unit, but when it gets made bigger the entire unit will all fall right in line. with just making it bigger, it does not work that way. metals to various other materials. also do not line up. from simply upscaling. from small prototype to a larger scale version.

i gotta wonder, between today's age of rapid prototyping on the computer, and more so 3D simulation setups, a unit can be placed into, without ever having to physically make anything. why there is need for smaller prototyping? maybe i am missing something. beyond the need for someone that requires a physical thing in front of them to better grasp it all. trying to figure out why i am being tied back to old age doings when computers were not around. i thought reason for these expensive full size 3D simulation setups. was just that, for rapid prototyping. and cost of the full 3D simulation, vs multi prototyping of multi things as physical models. it was cheaper for full 3D simulation. *scratches head* maybe i am missing something, and these full 3D simulation setups are a joke? i gotta wonder if all the hype is what it is all cracked up to be.... *scratching head*

perhaps missing point, of trying to assign a few way to many folks at an idea at one time. just kinda tossing money at things. vs a handful of folks, that get changed in and out as things progress. maybe having multi different third party contractors coming in as needed for an overall job. that specalizes in different aspects, that i am use to. is not the right way to go about things. from building a home. and having basement dug, then another company getting basement floor done, and another for basement wall, and another for roughing out the main floor walls and floors and roof, and another for house wrap, and other for shingles, and another for electrical, and another for plumbing.
maybe i am missing a point some place, were an asbesto company comes in as removes asbestos, and anther company comes in todo HVAC work, or boil work, or..... what ever it maybe, and then another company coming in to deal with this or that to finish things up.
from what i get from you, i get idea that a bunch of folks / companies were tossed together and said get it done and money just kept being tossed at ya. maybe i am wrong.

to above, i gotta wonder sometimes, bringing a bunch of third party companies, on various things, and paying overhead, for all the extra bosses, and accountants, and duplication of equipment, all duplication of paper work. or i should multi duplicates of paper work. that tend to end up being a few inches thick. i never really understood it. and needing to assign at min 1 person that is dedicated to paper work for each third party company.

===================
on another note.... i really do not bite, for companies having problems with (best efficiency point) of an engine and dealing with emissions. and trying to keep at a higher level of efficiency. granted i have never went through it, so i am talking out of my rear. but some times i gotta scratch my head and say huh? and this is one of them.
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Old 03-27-2013, 06:23 AM
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In today's world of finance to think you can compete with existing tractor companies is unrealistic.
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Old 03-27-2013, 06:53 AM
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In today's world of finance to think you can compete with existing tractor companies is unrealistic.
never said i wanted to compete. rather would rather join one.
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:43 PM
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Hey I'm just trying to help. By offering realistic suggestions, based on having been there and done that. You are confusing me too in your last post you said you would consider costs maybe after the prototype was built. Then You say that with computer design it's not needed. Well I hate to be the one to tell you this but just about every company that builds anything still prototypes. Even when they use computer aided design. And My point about building the directional boring machines and having 3 engineering firms on the design, seemed to be lost on you too. One firm was a hydraulic engineering firm. One was a electrical engineering firm. And one was for structural engineering. Plus we had the engine manufacture's engineering division there too. (That one was the Caterpillar tractor company) And on top of all that the owner of the company that dreamed up the idea in the first place was himself a engineer. Why would this Man use that many engineering firms to help him build something that had never been done before, And build scale prototypes to test before comiting to full size prototypes that cost in 1985 dollars close to 6 million to build. I don't know maybe he just wanted to burn money. But he was successful the day He died he was worth billions. But You said I don't know why you would need those other firms, And yet you by your own admission say that you know next to nothing about engines. And in your last post you said you didn't want to compete with the other manufactures you wanted to join them. And finely when you go to join them the first thing they WILL ask is what kind of performance can you get from your tractor. Ours can plow 280 acres a hour. Then you stand there and say well my computer testing shows I can get 300 acres a hour. So then they ask well have you built a prototype to test this? Your answer no but the computer says it will. Ok they say what is it going to cost to build each unit, We know that our unit's cost 72,000 to build each. And We sell them for 210,000 each. So what is the cost of production for your tractor. Well I really don't know as I didn't figure that was important. The result: Meeting over thanks for coming. I really hope I'm wrong about this. But if you are successful and can actually get this in production come back on this site and tell us how you did. I know this sounds mean but it is based on Me trying the same thing you are trying to do many times. I could give you examples but I don't think You are interested. But I will leave you with one thing. I never even mentioned the biggest wall you will have to get around. The old standby for most company's, "If it wasn't developed here we aren't interested." Do some searching about inventor's and see how many time that has come up for inventors trying to submit their ideas. Hope this helps Bill
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Old 03-28-2013, 04:22 AM
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*rubs chin* been mulling over your posts here on this thread Ironpony. for last few hours.
first off: You caught me on every single point Bill. and you have pointed out my ignorance and my stupidity.

ignorance
the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

stupid
1
a : slow of mind : obtuse
b : given to unintelligent decisions or acts : acting in an unintelligent or careless manner
c : lacking intelligence or reason : brutish

2
: dulled in feeling or sensation : torpid <still stupid from the sedative>

3
: marked by or resulting from unreasoned thinking or acting : senseless <a stupid decision>

4
a : lacking interest or point <a stupid event>

==========
second.... you are asking me to provide information. that clearly i will not be able to achieve on my own. both prototype and what tractor could do in a field, and how much. all notations are reasonable. i am asking for help.

I am not trying to sell an idea, i am here with concept that i know is not fully flushed out. I know what i want. a fully functional tractor/implement setup, that can be used. I am here to see this concept for what ever it may end up being to the end. regardless of consequences and my ignorance or stupidity along the way. said it multi times before, i am making it up as i go along as needed, when needed, and hopefully what makes sense and works. and hopefully learn quickly without falling flat on my face. per my last post, and learn lesson the hard way. with that said. thank you for taking the extra time with your last post.

===========
third. I have been posting on 3 different forums, that are within the industry i am focusing at. "agriculture / tractors / implements" most comments i get back fromm PM "private messages" and email, going something like this.... ya i would like to reply, but most of everything is far above me. or your nuts and quickly get overwhelmed, due to out of there scoop of knowledge and understanding. this is coming from same area, i am trying to get help from. and frankly i am right along with those same folks. of being over my head, and getting overwhelmed. and at moment it is engines.

============
forth....If i have to apply for a full patent/s i will. and if i have to seek funding i will. if i need to seek out and pay for this or that service, or information, i will. but it will not stop me from pestering the tractor manufactures, from taking this concept / idea on. they have the resources and more so the more specialized knowledge, that would be needed to make this into reality.

with above....
FLAT OUT
--what would it take, for me to come to one of these companies R&D places were there is a handful folks, that have 3D abilities and knowledge. and spend a week with them. hammering out basic concept doings? if not willing to take on cost, how much will it cost me? so i can come up with the money. assumption non-disclosure agreements signed. i am only looking to tie up a min of 2 people at a time. at this point if i am paying the bill.

if, then, elses, and buts. flat out what would it take for above to happen? it all comes back to... $$$. and i am putting my cash were my mouth is. it may not be much cash. but it is what it is.

==========
fifth. if a company picks this up. they can have at it, patent/s etc... just give me a fair wage. my ignorance / stupidity showing up once again.... then again flexibility. i am not here to get rich, i need/want a usable machine. that can work. and not some over bloated tractor and implements, that leaves with. "what can you do" and just take it. that i have heard to many times before.

if it takes me acting like a client and company helping build the machine so be it. if company takes it over as there own product, so be it. if i have to go out and alone for another couple years, and play the game per say, so be it.

============
my email is within all the forums i have posted to a click or 2 away.
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Old 03-28-2013, 04:51 AM
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A gas turbine can meet the space and power requirements. Cost to harness the rpm of a turbine to an agricultural implement may or may not be prohibitive- but it would be considerable, I'd imagine. Then there's the heat generated. But power to weight is good and many fuels could be used.

One example:
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Old 03-28-2013, 06:59 PM
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Not one time did I either imply that you were stupid. And I did not say it either. If You took it that way then I am sorry. I really was trying to help. I mean no disrespect at all. With that said I will tell you this. You come on this forum looking for answers to your problem. In this case you want a engine that can produce up to 600 hp and fit in a 20"x20" space. Because in your own words "I don't know much about engines" So In My first post I tried to explain that a diesel would be the best choice and why. You even agree that a turbine would fit in the space allowed by your design, and would be a good choice because of their high hp for their size. But you even agreed that they wouldn't work because of dirt ingestion. And the high cost of them. All I can tell you is good luck and I won't bother you again thanks Bill
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Old 03-28-2013, 07:07 PM
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new tractor

Pretty cool from scratch. But I would look at battery and solar recharge with individual electric drive wheels or electric motor to drive your pumps and keep Hydraulic drive axles. You could also install gas or diesel gen. to supplement recharge with out sun light.
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Old 03-28-2013, 07:11 PM
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If I misread and the entire powerplant has to fit inside a 20" box (I thought the available length was more than 20"), good luck w/making any real HP/torque using commonly available engines/technology.
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Old 03-29-2013, 05:47 AM
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" the entire powerplant has to fit inside a 20" box"

boggen, do a goggle search and chase down "Tesla's bladeless turbine", it's the only option small enough to fit and produce the power you need. It can be run as internal combustion OR steam driven. It can be made small enough to fit at each wheel, plumbing them would your task but 100psi would not be a problem.

Good luck with it.
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