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Old 03-18-2013, 01:00 AM
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trying to find a engine that will fit some dimensions

straight to the point.... looking for an engine that will fit in approx 20 inches wide, 20 inches tall, and can be up to say 13 feet long. with approx 200 to 600HP. prefer drive shaft more centered in the 20 inches wide by 20 inches tall, but can work around that. more HP the better. would prefer to stay away from high RPM's of 10,000 or less. lower the RPM's the better for max torque produced. =============== the long drawn out story. been on a search for engine that could work for a tractor i am trying to build. new tractor idea possibly.... the design of the tractor is forcing me to find a smaller width and height engine. and piston/cylinder style engines i have not came across anything that would fit the bill. and thought, i would try some hot rod / sport car forums, to see if someone might be able to point me in a direction. i am willing to push up to 30 inches wide by 30 inches high, for a higher HP engine, but smaller width and height the better. if i can find something at or below 20 x 20 and what ever length, and high HP. i would be extremely happy! when i say 20 x 20, that is everything, no oil filters, no turbos, no pipes, no wires, can extend out past that. in order to deal with EPA and regulations, I am hoping to find something, that would allow both air intake and exhaust to be ported off to the same side. prefer diesel engine. the engine will be powering generator, and hydraulic pump. no direct axle or transmission connections to engine. ============== turbine engines for jets / air planes / helicopters. at moment i am shunning away from. all that i have seen, has way to much "air flow" going through them. that extra air flow = dust, leaves, stems, dirt, rocks = problems of larger air filter, that will already be getting used and abused in the fields. ============== below is an older diagram. showing just a single section of this tractor. were engine, generator, hyd pump would fit. i am planning to place, fuel tank, fuse / relay box, radiators, hydraulic oil coolers, air filters, in other sections of this tractor. i just do not want to run a drive shaft between sections.
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Old 03-18-2013, 06:32 AM
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No gas engine will fit those dimensions. Even the best four bangers are taller than 26 inches when installed. Rotary engines are small but will not work well with your needs. a no tq rotary and high rpm will clash with 6 or 8 wheels to turn over. Even the newest version is way low on starting tq and almost need a manual trans to be drivable.

A chevy 350 is your best bets for power and package size. Most other inlines will be much taller than 20 inches.

An electric motor is the only way you can hit the 20 inch mark and make the numbers you need.

If you can push your numbers a little further. in width and hieght a chevy 350 will work good for the power part but still wider and taller than you need.

Most four bangers are over head cam. I think gm makes a four cylinder that uses normal v8 style heads. with case mounted cam. Iron Duke its called i think. It will make some power. but not going to make 600 hp. 200 hp is in the range but maybe not too cheap. I know they are used for racing pretty often. Its basicly one side of a v8 and can be stripped down to very little but still may not be close to 20 inches tall.

GM Iron Duke engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And it will require some custom mods to fit. Looking at your design I am not sure it will work but is the closest thing that will make power and be very close in size. it is also well supported with aftermarket parts. That will help make it smaller and lighter. Most of the jap and euro motors will be lacking in this area and have overhead cams that will add 6" inches to the hight of the motor.

FYI I would make room for the 350 chevy. Propably cheaper and more power than anything on the market. The SBC is about 29 inches square. Much less in some areas.

Hope this helps.
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Old 03-18-2013, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcompton View Post
No gas engine will fit those dimensions. Even the best four bangers are taller than 26 inches when installed. Rotary engines are small but will not work well with your needs. a no tq rotary and high rpm will clash with 6 or 8 wheels to turn over. Even the newest version is way low on starting tq and almost need a manual trans to be drivable.

A chevy 350 is your best bets for power and package size. Most other inlines will be much taller than 20 inches.

An electric motor is the only way you can hit the 20 inch mark and make the numbers you need.

If you can push your numbers a little further. in width and hieght a chevy 350 will work good for the power part but still wider and taller than you need.

Most four bangers are over head cam. I think gm makes a four cylinder that uses normal v8 style heads. with case mounted cam. Iron Duke its called i think. It will make some power. but not going to make 600 hp. 200 hp is in the range but maybe not too cheap. I know they are used for racing pretty often. Its basicly one side of a v8 and can be stripped down to very little but still may not be close to 20 inches tall.

GM Iron Duke engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And it will require some custom mods to fit. Looking at your design I am not sure it will work but is the closest thing that will make power and be very close in size. it is also well supported with aftermarket parts. That will help make it smaller and lighter. Most of the jap and euro motors will be lacking in this area and have overhead cams that will add 6" inches to the hight of the motor.

FYI I would make room for the 350 chevy. Propably cheaper and more power than anything on the market. The SBC is about 29 inches square. Much less in some areas.

Hope this helps.

I wouldn't say the sbc is the best at anything besides being cheap and widely available.

The 20"X20" is a real small package but you can do that with a turbocharged motorcycle engine, if properly redesigned you can hit your 200hp goal at a relatively low rpm as long as you are using a well designed turbo system.

While the width requirement can be met with many auto inline engines the height is near impossible to meet even with dry sump pans.
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Old 03-18-2013, 09:03 AM
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Maybe I'm missing the concept here, but hydrostatic drives are pretty common in industrial equipment and tractors. The advantage is that the engine runs at a fairly constant RPM, so it can be tuned for maximum HP and fuel economy. Sounds like you need to be looking at an inline tractor diesel.
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Old 03-18-2013, 03:10 PM
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btw sorry for ugly first post, i had things all spaced out and looking good, no idea why everything got tossed into a single long cluster mess. thanks for the links / info Hcompton. came across 350 Chevy Engine Dimensions almost there! i did hit some what on motorcycle engines at one time ap72, but i never put much effort / length of time into trying to track down actual dimensions and HP produced. will take another try at it, Thanks! joe_padavano, from car engine, to truck engine, to tractor engine. there all pretty much exact same engine setup. ya gas, to diesel, to LP (liquid propane), to other, the fuel may make some difference in engine setup. but most part the same. it is the dimensions that i am having problems with. i have no place like front of a car/truck/tractor to drop an engine, or a trunk to place an engine into, all i got is basically this square pipe going down the center of the tractor. i can go up to 30 x 30, but if i can reach my mark of 20 x 20, that 10 inches for both width and height, is huge, once i start folding / unfolding tractor implements off the top of this thing, and dealing with suspension per say for wheels. that 10 inches keeps getting magnified that begins to really hurt the overall setup.
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Old 03-18-2013, 03:11 PM
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not sure what the problem is, quick reply, and going to advance page to add photos, both are causing my replys to become a jumbled mess. without line brakes. to admin of site, is there something with me being a "newbie" to this forum, and some sort of settings i need to adjust?
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Old 03-18-2013, 06:30 PM
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the 62 & 53 buick had a v8 215 cu in all aluminum ,heads block intake also olds same year offered it with turbo/they are currently used in land rover or range rovers with fuel injection, the bought patent from gm also same engine used in MGB-gt -v8 all parts are avalible .they are small in size and light weight dont know if yhis will help with what you need,
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
I wouldn't say the sbc is the best at anything besides being cheap and widely available.

The 20"X20" is a real small package but you can do that with a turbocharged motorcycle engine, if properly redesigned you can hit your 200hp goal at a relatively low rpm as long as you are using a well designed turbo system.

While the width requirement can be met with many auto inline engines the height is near impossible to meet even with dry sump pans.

The chevy 350 is one of the lightest and most compact v8's ever made. Only bmw all aluminum and plastic thing is lighter and only by a few pounds but it is also a lot bigger with over head cams and fully dressed its hundred pounds more than the chevy.

Also makes the most power per cube of any engine you can buy and build cheaply. None of the jap or eruo motors even come close in performance for dollar. a 1000 hp chevy is 8 thousand dollars. a 1000 hp porsche or supra or bmw or merc is well over that money and will not last half as long. No engine ever made can come close to the numbers chevy's have put on the dyno. Even if you spend 20 G's on any euro or jap motor it wont make 1000hp without boost or blower. SBC will do it and do it every weekend at the race track.

And just for the record. I only see people beating chevy's on the net not at the track. Even the fast fords have chevy motors.

Motorcylce engine will not last. they are no made to idle for long periods or chug along for long periods. they simply wont work. Also I do not know of any motorcycle engine with its trans attached that is less than 20 inched in all demensiosn. Most are alot bigger. The busa motor is WAY bigger. Best bet would be a older kaw 900 custom block kit where you build your own engine cases. way to much cash to make it right.

You may want to check out how a legends car uses the fj1200 engine with a drive shaft maybe this will help but still will not fit into the hole you need. or make the power you want.

The chevy is the best bet. Hydro drive would be good as well. but need a big engine to turn a pump of that size. And dont forget about assesories for the chevy. block hugger headers and carbs may add to the demensions but may could fit in unused space if setup correctly.
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by hcompton View Post
The chevy 350 is one of the lightest and most compact v8's ever made. Only bmw all aluminum and plastic thing is lighter and only by a few pounds but it is also a lot bigger with over head cams and fully dressed its hundred pounds more than the chevy.

Also makes the most power per cube of any engine you can buy and build cheaply. None of the jap or eruo motors even come close in performance for dollar. a 1000 hp chevy is 8 thousand dollars. a 1000 hp porsche or supra or bmw or merc is well over that money and will not last half as long. No engine ever made can come close to the numbers chevy's have put on the dyno. Even if you spend 20 G's on any euro or jap motor it wont make 1000hp without boost or blower. SBC will do it and do it every weekend at the race track.

And just for the record. I only see people beating chevy's on the net not at the track. Even the fast fords have chevy motors.

Motorcylce engine will not last. they are no made to idle for long periods or chug along for long periods. they simply wont work. Also I do not know of any motorcycle engine with its trans attached that is less than 20 inched in all demensiosn. Most are alot bigger. The busa motor is WAY bigger. Best bet would be a older kaw 900 custom block kit where you build your own engine cases. way to much cash to make it right.

You may want to check out how a legends car uses the fj1200 engine with a drive shaft maybe this will help but still will not fit into the hole you need. or make the power you want.

The chevy is the best bet. Hydro drive would be good as well. but need a big engine to turn a pump of that size. And dont forget about assesories for the chevy. block hugger headers and carbs may add to the demensions but may could fit in unused space if setup correctly.
LOL i am glad to see some one else noticed on Pinks and Passtime the fastest Mustangs had 400 sbc engines..
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:12 AM
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i have not taken full time to look more into the chevy 350, i got side tracked in my internet searchings, it is as much of "learning on the go" as finding something that might work.

in attempt to put a different spin on this thread....
custom engine is fine with me. and almost expecting, to need to custom make an engine. to better fit within the dimensions i am shooting for. at this stage in the game plan, experimental engines are acceptable. eventually a will need to nail something down. but a ways away from that goal/stage.

==========
different note: problem seems to be fixed, not sure, why first 2 posts were all jumbled mess. only thing i have done, since first 2 posts here on the forum is restart firefox. i have posted to other forums using vbulletin forum software and all was good in that same time frame. going to blame firefox.
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:52 AM
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I don't get it...

If you're designing from scratch why not design it to hold the powerplant that you want to use?

Alternatively if there is a good reason, if you have 13', then why not just string a row of motorcycle engines inline till you have the power that you need?

For that matter, if all you want it >200hp, just take a single bike engine and put a turbo or blower on it (how about an eaton mated directly to the crank?)

I don't get why this is such a big deal, without more details it seems like there's a dozen ways to make this work.
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:56 AM
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I don't get it...

If you're designing from scratch why not design it to hold the powerplant that you want to use?

Alternatively if there is a good reason, if you have 13', then why not just string a row of motorcycle engines inline till you have the power that you need?

For that matter, if all you want it >200hp, just take a single bike engine and put a turbo or blower on it (how about an eaton mated directly to the crank?)

I don't get why this is such a big deal, without more details it seems like there's a dozen ways to make this work.
more details there is....

i simply do not know engines. it has never been one of them things that has interested me. general mechanical work, oil changes, filters, fix wiring issues on the farm no real biggy, but actual types of engines out there, and knowing the math and formulas for this and that or what does or does not work.. i simply do not have a clue. and in that, my lack of knowledge is the big deal, and more so experience of knowing about different engines, and type of engines.

===============
ya i am building from scratch. but i have tied myself to dimensions for this tractor. 8 feet wide 60 feet long 14 feet high max dimensions (approx max dimensions world wide, without requiring some sort of special permit or like).

the 13 foot comes in, splitting up the 60 foot into 4 sections. ((there is a couple feet between sections taken up by connection points))

once i start adding on wheels, frame work, linkages (think 3pt hitch for a tractor) to fold/unfold implements off the top of this tractor. i am down to needing a engine, that i would to see in the 20" wide x 20" tall.

if engine is taller than 20 inches, say 30 inches. the linkages (metal bars and hydrualic cylinders), would need to be an extra 10 inches longer. to fold implements up on top of this tractor. that 10 inches, gets magnified via old tetter totter (grade school lever math). requiring larger diameter hydraulic cylinders, and longer hydraulic cylinders. this all starts adding up more and more to a point. there is no room left.

right now the name of tractor = SSTT (sideways snake train tractor). the picture in this thread, that single section is in transport mode. but when in field mode tires do a 90 degree rotation. so instead of 8 feet wide, 60 feet long going down the road like a semi truck / trailer. it is now 60 foot "wide", 8 feet "long"

these same tires need room to rotate both in transport mode and in field mode to take turns on the road and in the field. this alone puts restraints of were i can place things and how i space things out along the 60 foot.

your talking field tractor, that needs to get tires between rows of crop. so your not running over all the plants. if i am battling hydraulic cylinder diameters due to larger linkages needed, that is a result from a taller and wider engine setup. i get myself into issues of not being able to place tires were they need to be for different crops. that might be spaced at different row widths.

it all falls back, that yes i could push things up 30 inches wide by 30 inches tall. but i rather spend extra time seeing if i can find something that fits 20 inches x 20 inches. (smaller the better, within reason of course).

but at begining of this reply, like i said, i am no engine person. i honestly do not know. 20x20 maybe an unreasonable dimensions. but i have set a goal to that, and will see what i can find.

============
200HP is low end, i am looking for higher say 600HP, but i honestly do not know top HP at this point beyond just general comparison of tractor field implements, and looking at what is needed / suggested for current age tractor HP for the given implement/s.

i figure if i can get an engine that meets the upper limits of what is need/wanted. i can always down size. and stay with same framework, tires, etc... but if i start with 2 small of an engine. i will never be able to use this tractor all but very minor doings in the field if at all.

i am more looking at "swap out engine" undo a wire harness, undeo coolant lines, undo battery cables, undo fuel line, undo exhaust, undo air intake. undo a couple bolts. and pull the larger say 600HP engine out, with a fork lift, set it down, and then pickup say a 250HP engine and drop back in, and hook everything back up. so when the implement that is to be used out in the field only needs say 200HP. i am not wasting a few hundred plus bucks on fuel on the larger 600HP engine. granted this paragraph is most like a pipe dream at this time, but it is something i have in back of my mind.

to above a 60 foot implement, of one type may only require 140HP, while another implement that engages more deeper into the dirt, may require 300HP, while yet another implement type may require 500 to 600HP.

besides regular field tractor implements (chisels, rippers, discs, bottom plows, seeders, cutters, etc...) there is good chance a flat bed or box will be tossed on top of this. to move round bails, or to move harvested crop.

due to the design of this tractor. there is a good chance, 1 implement will fold off, on one 60 foot side, while another implement folds off the other 60 foot side, and go through the field with 2 implements basically.

the 8 foot ends, i can not add an engine, or i would risk nailing fence posts, and running down crop before combine or like gets to it. plus 8 foot ends is were the main cab connect (separate unit, kinda like a semi truck / trailer relationship)

============
i can not let the engine set lower within this frame. more so during wet years, and sinking up to the belly, i would end up tearing any sort of oil pan or cover all up.

============
with above, i think i covered it, both 60 foot sides, both 8 foot sides, reason for 20" high vs not really wanting 30" high for an engine. reason for 13 foot length sections.

the 20" width, is tire size. field tractor plus muddy spots.... i need some larger diameter tires. wider i go for engine. the smaller the tires will need to be.

============
============
============
servicing engine....

engine oil, engine oil filter, air filter, fuse /relay box. fuel tank filler. all of the basic routine check maintenance things. will need to happen. at the ends of each 13' section (total of 4 sections). so a person can actually check things without having to dis-mantel / unhook implements or like.

for major maintenance, i was looking at having some sort of "hinged latch" both on top and below the 20x20 frame work. that a person could grab a hold of and remove. the sides of the frame work. is already tied up with tracks to adjust wheel spacings, coolant lines (water/antifreeze mix), electrical cables, 3000PSI hydrualic oil lines, and a pressurized 200PSI max air line.

trying to place multi engines (and just hooked up through drive shafts), creates a problem, trying to service each engine, . no way to get to each engine individually.

the tractor will most likely be on some pretty good slopes working fields. and at some odd ball angles as well. result, i will need to use some sort of engine oil pump setup. to feed oil were it needs to go with what ever that gets used. most likely the engine will need a of min of 2 engine oil pickups. so engine oil does not all collect at one end and pump is not able to pick the engine oil up from the other end.

Quote:
Alternatively if there is a good reason, if you have 13', then why not just string a row of motorcycle engines inline till you have the power that you need?
see above.... been trying to avoid a line of multiple engines all tied together via there drive shafts. i might get away with a single engine block that is similiar to a bunch of smaller engines lined up. but been holding out. to see if there something better out there.

diesel is fuel of choice at moment, overall safer vs gas, and from little i know, diesel will give me more power vs gas when talking same amount of fuel used. longer tractor can keep going in the field the better between refueling.

=============
20 x 20 is my goal.
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:21 PM
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getting closer...
dimensions for 305/350
Engine Dimensions

is there any sort of 3D files for say autodesk inventor, or solidswork or like?
or some sort of software that can help spit out various numbers for engines?
or some sort of spec sheet i could use to draw something up in autodesk inventor?
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:59 AM
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Popular American V8 Engine Dimensions

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Old 03-21-2013, 08:24 AM
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thank ya 1Gary.

================
i got a couple other leads that i found. that gets away from the standard piston/cylinder engine. that looks more promising to hit my 20x20 dimensions. and hopefully the engine types can be elongated. to fit this tractor better. vs a V or straight piston/cylinder engine can.

cousin is more of the gear head of the family, and will see if he can help / point me in a local company direction that does customized engines. for the chevy 350. granted most likely will end up setting down and chicken scratching out something in autodesk inventor, to rough out geometry of a 350 engine. but most likely going to put it on hold to see if the other leads pan out.

will update the main thread at tractorbynet new tractor idea possibly.... here in a couple hours with information.

=========
thanks for the help everyone!
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