Tuned port injection (M-A-F) upgrades - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2005, 04:16 PM
boneyard Buick's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: BC
Age: 28
Posts: 225
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Tuned port injection (M-A-F) upgrades

if i were to install a tuned port injection unit from a '88 camaro, is it accetable to have a big cam and flat topped pistons. I've been doing research and most people have said that If the tuned port injection has a mass air flow sensor, then you can do whatever you want with it, is this true? ANy help with what you can and cannot do to '88 TPI mass air flow unit?
Thanks..

    Advertisement
__________________
Ryan350 :thumbup:
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2005, 04:27 PM
jesse01's Avatar
mini me
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: titusville, fl.
Age: 31
Posts: 802
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by boneyard Buick
if i were to install a tuned port injection unit from a '88 camaro, is it accetable to have a big cam and flat topped pistons. I've been doing research and most people have said that If the tuned port injection has a mass air flow sensor, then you can do whatever you want with it, is this true? ANy help with what you can and cannot do to '88 TPI mass air flow unit?
Thanks..
umm.....thaught the '86 and older tpi used the m.a.f.
as far as the "big cam" you would have to get a custom prom, but ya you could do alot w/ the tpi as long as you get a custom prom

i went w/ the "super ram" set-up with the "big mouth base manifold" on my 383 myself, more hp & torque

J
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2005, 04:45 PM
1931 steve's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: How to rebuild an engine Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Age: 42
Posts: 1,207
Wiki Edits: 4

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by boneyard Buick
if i were to install a tuned port injection unit from a '88 camaro, is it accetable to have a big cam and flat topped pistons. I've been doing research and most people have said that If the tuned port injection has a mass air flow sensor, then you can do whatever you want with it, is this true? ANy help with what you can and cannot do to '88 TPI mass air flow unit?
Thanks..
The MAF set up is much more forgiving of mods, only to a certain extent. You will be much further ahead with a prom that will work with your set up. What type of mods are you talking about?

Steve
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2005, 05:19 PM
Siggy_Freud's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon
Age: 29
Posts: 2,371
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
TPI systems used the MAF from 89 and earlier. After that it became speed density.

You can do a lot with TPI's in general. They can accept some pretty wicked cams, but you'll have to do a lot of programing in the prom to make it friendly (and in some cases running at all). I changed the cam in mine awhile back and I had to do some tuning (along with changing the heads) to get it to idle right. Instead of paying someone to do it, I just bought the stuff needed and began learning/reading how to do it.

My cam specs are 224/224 @.050 - .528/.528 lift - 112LSA (that is with 1.6 FRR).

Currently I could just a mild stall with that cam I think, but once in its powerband it runs great. Still tuning to be done to improve it, but its certainly a great start. TPI's are fun. Once you get used to them they dont seem much harder to work with than a carbed setup. In many instances it is easier in fact.

What specifically is it that you want to do to the TPI? What do you want your car to do in general?
__________________
Bringing history and technology together.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2005, 05:32 PM
boneyard Buick's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: BC
Age: 28
Posts: 225
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
tpi

the tpi setup that i have is from a 1988, it is mass air flow, and basically, all i want to do to the tpi is throw it on a 350. The 350 has flat top pistons, with a cam and geardrive. The cam specs are 280 duration and 480 lift. The heads have been ported out a little bit and all bearings have been replaced in the motor. I want to have this motor as a daily driver but also perform well when i punch the gas. I also upgraded my valve srpings to, the newer LT1 valve springs which will eliminate valve float.

What is a "custom prom"

- and is my cam small enough, smaller than the 528 lift, so would i need a custom prom?

- im pretty sure my heads are 68cc's. Is this acceptable. Do you guys think i will have a steady idle?? If not, i got a smaller roller cam, and i do have access to some 350 heads with the angle intake bolts, and center valve cover bolts. Or i can get the stock heads that came off of the 305 in the camaro and just simply change the valve springs.
Thats all the info for now Siggy, anything else you could help me with??
__________________
Ryan350 :thumbup:

Last edited by boneyard Buick; 06-30-2005 at 05:40 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2005, 05:47 PM
Dizturbed One's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Sacramento, California
Age: 31
Posts: 198
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Finally... Something I can relate to over here. I'm a thirdgen Camaro guy

You CAN use it, but...

Anything past a certain point and MAF likely be causing you problems. You can't just do "anything" to them. It's been known to work just fine, but it's not the norm. It's also a big chokepoint sometimes, it's preferable to switch to Speed Density if it's going to be a high performance mill. I'd go with a newer ECM because of that. The MAF can be problematic and harder to tune when you get into bigger power also. MAF takes readings based on precise air volume, while MAP estimates it from engine vacuum, so you can see why MAP would be more forgiving.

All 86 to 89 TPI Camaro's had an ECM equipped with an MAF (165 Series ECM). 90 to 92 had a 730 Series ECM which was equipped with Speed Density (MAP).

You can upgrade the 165 ECM to the 730 ECM if you want, but if you're starting with nothing than it's easier to go 730 from the start.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2005, 05:53 PM
boneyard Buick's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: BC
Age: 28
Posts: 225
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
so if i were to go with MAF, and i got a kit from painless to wire it in, it would have all the necessary plugs for that am i correct?

And if i were to get a new ECM and change to speed density, can i still do cam upgrades and such etc??.. and what would i do to the intake plenum to convert it, nothing? just swap computers and ask painless for a wiring kit for a '88 TPI system thats been changed to SPEED DENSITY?

And what if i do choose to go with MAF, then whats the big deal??? What do i have to do to tune these TPI units? Is the speed density just easier to setup? because i have everything from the camaro to put it in my car all i need is The painless wiring kit.
__________________
Ryan350 :thumbup:
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2005, 07:06 PM
jesse01's Avatar
mini me
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: titusville, fl.
Age: 31
Posts: 802
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
=
Quote:
Siggy_Freud]TPI systems used the MAF from 89 and earlier. After that it became speed density.
thats right, i knew they were for certain years

i musta been thinking about the center bolt heads for '86 and older

my mistake, good thing about this place if your mistaken about something someone here will have the right answer

J
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2005, 07:56 PM
Siggy_Freud's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon
Age: 29
Posts: 2,371
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Speed density does have its advantages. However I have seen people making well past 500 hp and still using their MAF systems.

IF you were going to go with a speed denisty, you'd need the computer that Disturbed One mentioned (730 series) and you'd just get a Painless harness for a speed density type. There are a few other things you'd need to change/add/delete. You'd need a MAP sensor (not too spendy). You'd also be eliminating the ESC (Electronic spark control) sensor if I remember right. I think MOST of the other sensors are the same (if not all).

Its hard to say how well it would run with a stock program on that cam. If the TPI was off a 305 it will probably run pretty shotty (just based on the chip being programmed for a much smaller cam and 45 less cubes).

A custom prom is simply a chip (prom is basically a chip) that is custom programmed to YOUR setup. A true custom prom is done at your car. Your car is driven and scanned and then changes are made by you, or by a tuner via a computer and chip burning equipment.
__________________
Bringing history and technology together.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2005, 09:15 AM
1931 steve's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: How to rebuild an engine Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Age: 42
Posts: 1,207
Wiki Edits: 4

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizturbed One
Finally... Something I can relate to over here. I'm a thirdgen Camaro guy

You CAN use it, but...

Anything past a certain point and MAF likely be causing you problems. You can't just do "anything" to them. It's been known to work just fine, but it's not the norm. It's also a big chokepoint sometimes, it's preferable to switch to Speed Density if it's going to be a high performance mill. I'd go with a newer ECM because of that. The MAF can be problematic and harder to tune when you get into bigger power also. MAF takes readings based on precise air volume, while MAP estimates it from engine vacuum, so you can see why MAP would be more forgiving.
Unless I'm wrong I have always thought that the MAF setup was much more forgiving on a stock set up with some aftermarket mods, such as cams headers, cyl heads, ect... This being that the MAF measures the amount of air going into the engine and does its calculations from those numbers. Also the newer LT1 engines use the MAF sensor, and most HP factory cars are using the MAF set up, so I think they must work well or they would not use them again.
But yes it is a good idea to burn a chip that is right for you engine combo.
Some of the reasons that people go to the speed density set up is, not enough room for the plumbing and the MAF sensor itself.
If I'm wrong please let me know.

Steve
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2005, 11:28 AM
Siggy_Freud's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon
Age: 29
Posts: 2,371
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
I have always read that MAF are more forgiving as well. Especially with larger cams. Low vacuum readings due to overlap and whatnot can fool the S/D into thinking even LESS air is coming in than actually is. With a MAF that actual amount of incoming air is measured. The short comings of the MAF are seen in its limit of 255 grams of air per second. That is the highest reference it can see. This can certainly become and issue with monster sized motors and forced induction. IMO run what is easiest for you to setup at the time as it will all work out eventually.

Many new cars actually run both a MAF and MAP sensor and use their readings to 'average' the incoming air.
__________________
Bringing history and technology together.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2005, 01:07 PM
boneyard Buick's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: BC
Age: 28
Posts: 225
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Tpi

so like i mentioned earlier. My motor isnt too "crazy" and pushing a whole lot of horsepower i think. All i have is a 350, with headers, cam 280 dur. 480 lift. Flat top pistons and some 68cc chambered heads that have had a bit of porting done to them, and have newer stuffer LT1 valve sorings and new seals. I'm probably going to go with the mass air flow setup because i have everything i need to install it, all i need is the painless kit. What is your guys' oppinion? Is this setup appropriate for the TPI unit i have? (1988 iroc TPI MAF)
And im probably going to have to get a new chip burned for this, but is the cam a descent size for the TPI unit and not too EXTREME?
__________________
Ryan350 :thumbup:

Last edited by boneyard Buick; 07-01-2005 at 01:14 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2005, 01:22 PM
edge's Avatar
Time is short, are you ready?
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: South Carolina
Age: 45
Posts: 658
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by boneyard Buick
What is your guys' opinion?
IMO - If you are going to buy a Painless Harness, I would go to SD. Get a 730 ECM off Ebay, and a stock MEMCAL from GM for a 92' Camaro with a 5.7L TPI. Then get equipment to read, change and burn your own flash chips (Click here to see what you need). Or, you could opt for emulation (real-time changes) by spending a few extra dollars on a Moates' Autoprom.

Regardless of what you do, MAF or SD, I think that cam will give you nothing but headaches. 280* advertised duration with .480 lift sounds like a Comp or Lunati cam which will be 230* @ .050 with either a 110 or 108 lsa; neither of which will be good for EFI. Again this is my opinion and based on my experiences.

Whatever you do, get ready for the world of DIY-PROM, or you spend a ton of money getting a "custom" chip that will be anything but custom. Go over to www.thirdgen.org in the DIY-PROM forum and read all about that topic.

Best of luck with your project, Ed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2005, 01:27 PM
1931 steve's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: How to rebuild an engine Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Age: 42
Posts: 1,207
Wiki Edits: 4

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Your best bet is to bolt everything together and give it a try. You may be OK.
Even if you need Prom burnt, you can find many people to do this for you on the internet. If I can find the company that I will go with I will post it for you or I will PM you. This company asks for a $500.00 deposit for a lap top computer and cables. You run your car and save the info off the data log, and e-mail the results. Then they will send you a Prom to install. Then repeat, send data log over and over until they get the best tune for your engine setup. In the end I think they will due up to 15 Prom burns for you. I believe that the end cost is around $100.00-$125.00 if you send back the laptop.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2005, 07:15 PM
boneyard Buick's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: BC
Age: 28
Posts: 225
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
yes, my cam is a comp cam. I got a few other cams that arent quite so big, they are more of a steady idle, so im thinking that might be a better choice for the tuned port injection. Im going to stay with the mass air flow becuase i already have the stuff to do it. If i had a steady running cam, instead of a lumpy cam, then will the tuned port injection run better? If i changed the cam to a smaller one, is it possible that i may not need a chip burned, if it runs good?

And does anyone know where the o2 sensors are located on the motor/exhaust system???
__________________
Ryan350 :thumbup:
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tuned Port Injection Tpi Question Help! boneyard Buick Engine 3 06-29-2005 10:20 PM
TUNED PORT INJECTION wiring question! help boneyard Buick Electrical 0 06-29-2005 05:04 PM
Tuned Port Injection Harness boneyard Buick Engine 3 01-09-2005 12:16 PM
TUNED PORT OR CARB. joegaddy Engine 11 01-31-2003 05:23 AM
sticky throttle on 1987 Corvette, Tuned Port Injection H-D_Vette Engine 1 11-13-2002 12:53 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.