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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 09-04-2010, 05:34 PM
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Bummer.

I'm going to take a stab here and say that either the oil pump pick-up broke or fell off, or the oil pump casting broke just above the attaching bolt.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 09-04-2010, 07:39 PM
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F Bird, everyone...

Thanks again for all of the comments - Eric hit it right on the nose - the oil pump pickup fell off. And then my son, after hearing from a passenger that he noticed the oil pressure gauge was at 0, continued to drive it even though they were hearing a funny noise.



Melling Pump - M77HV if I can read it correctly on the parts ticket
Melling Pickup - 7751 Oil Pickup
Moroso Oil Pump drive - 22080

Pulled a bearing cap, and the crank is toast. Cylinder walls don't look good and with the block already 60 over, I don't think anything can be done to save it.

A closer shot



Not that I wanted it to end this way, but all of you are getting to help shape the next engine - or at least shortblock to go into the car. F Bird - I have to give you credit for hanging in there the most. We now get to explore everything you wanted to know and this time, I'll make sure that if this ever happens again 10 years down the road, that the next F Bird will have everything at his fingertips.

My racing neighbor came over and said "you know the oil pumps I use have a welded on pickup tube. Here - you can have one!!" And the repair could have been as simple as that.

But it also means that a lot of the other ideas you have provided wouldn't have come into play like they most likely will now.

Once I figure out how to fund it all...

How about a recap to get me a little excited?!?

Carbs...

1. Turn em over and check transfer slot exposure for correct positioning. .020
2. Order 34-3 rear metering plate conversions from Quick Fuel - install 75 jets to start. Current plate is a 69.
3. Add 90 degree fitting to the existing fuel gauge so that I can see it while driving.
4. Utilize high base timing to reduce idle creep with current cam - and I guess the new cam also.
5. Consider high flow needle and seat assembly
6. Current power valve is a 35. Adjust to 45 or check vacuum levels and determine from there if a new cam is installed. Currently 12" in gear.
7. Installed spring in secondaries is the short yellow. Adjust based on results from change to 75 jets.

Cam...

1. Consider the original factory equipment cam from GM or the Crane cam listed in the thread
2. Retard current cam 4-6 degrees to enhance high RPM operation at the expense of some loss of torque. An idea to keep in mind for the new cam selection.

Pistons...
1. Target 10:1.
2. Compression: 170-190 on pump gas. 165 was level achieved in road test article.

Timing
1. 20 plus degrees for base timing - 38 max
2. Purchase 10 and 14 degree bushings from FBO in Oregon
3. Install, if needed, ignition toggle switch cutoff to aid in starting

Starter
1. Add back reinforcement bracket to support the starter

Torque Converter
1. 3000 plus, but maybe 2400 - would like to drive in a car first to see what a high RPM converter is like.

Rear axle ratio
1. Consider swap to 3:42 to one from 4:30. Appears to be available on EBAY from a Texas shop

Dyno test
1. Visit Joe Sherman up the street 20 miles in Santa Ana before DOING anything!!!

Exhaust
1. Try to work out a revised baffle prior to sending to Jet Hot for coating. Possibly cutting out current restriction, but having it set up that it could be re-installed if the sound level is too high. Some type of bracket on the inside that can easily unbolted when the extension is off. Or as F Bird put it: 2.75" to 3" inner core "perforated tube" A big diameter long tube with holes drilled in it, wrapped with steel wool or some kind of fiber glass wrap.

Oil Pump
1. Get one with a welded pick up tube!!!!

Well, I think that about covers the ideas we talked about. Obviously a lot can change since the engine is coming out. No plan to change the heads as I don't believe they would have been hurt too much from the starvation.

Looking forward to maybe having the car running again by the holidays, but it all depends on the job situation. Let's hope something comes up in the next week or two.

Thanks again for all of the assistance and recommendations. I don't need the fastest car, or an idle that will shake me to death, but I think we are on the right track to get me what I want - some kick in the pants at high rpm in upper 2nd and the beginning of 3rd.

Beyond that, I'll just take a ride with you in a nice, safe closed car and enjoy the ride through a quarter mile run!

Have a great rest of the holiday weekend and if you have some final comments to add to the thread, please share them.

You guys are the best!!!
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 09-04-2010, 07:56 PM
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Sounds like you have a plan. Many BBC's can be bored beyond .060".

.100" over is not unusual . If not, rebuildable 396-402 blocks are not rare and not real expensive as everyone goes after the larger 4.25" bore blocks.
Yep the (LS-6) heads look good. Definitely hang on to them.

All that junk in the bottom of the pan is not pretty.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 09-04-2010, 09:59 PM
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I'll second that, an .070"-.100" overbore is not a problem on almost all 4.250 bore BBC blocks, what you have can likely be saved.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 09-04-2010, 10:36 PM
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Thanks guys. Never thought that could be done. Had always heard 396's were weird animals in terms of bore, thin walls, etc. On Tuesday, I'm going to visit the shop that built the engine 10 years ago (6,000 miles) and see what they have lying around. Since we haven't pulled the pistons out yet, we don't really know the full extent of the damage, but the crank looks like a total waste.

Maybe in a week or so, we'll pull it out of the car and hopefully not hurt anything cosmetic. The paint is only 6 months old. Chrome all around it is fresh. Just need to be careful, but something always happens when people or tools are around cars.

Well, that's it for tonight. Kind of a mood buster after all of the fun this was.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 09-04-2010, 11:35 PM
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my KARMA ran over my DOGMA
 

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Something don't add up here, what the hell is in the pan? looks like you were feeding the deer with it, and I thought you were broke?
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2010, 12:27 AM
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Custom - still broke. Just getting the list together. Depending on how many friends I have for this situation, there could be a free bore here, a turn there, labor, etc. May even find the speed shop that did the work will help.

In the meantime, we can play with the pieces that will be used, and I guess I'm going to have to make a final decision on the rear axle gear ratio. The cam selection is going to depend on it. Maybe if I put the 3:42's in, the current cam works - although it will need to go. New cam will be a roller, so it's out even if it could be saved.

And no deer would eat out of that pan....it's all metal and bearings!!!
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2010, 12:37 AM
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my KARMA ran over my DOGMA
 

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OK well don't forget to tack the pickup this time K

And oh yeah they will feed from your pan if you stuff in some fresh oats...

One of my tree stands, can't miss em from here:
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2010, 12:41 AM
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my KARMA ran over my DOGMA
 

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well had a nice pick of tree stand...2.3 meg should have known it did not load
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2010, 04:39 PM
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Hi guys,

Hope your holiday weekend has been a good one!

Took some shots underneath the engine/torque converter and wanted to share them with you. Not even sure what I am looking at in terms of the main bearing - is it actually the bearing or the surface of the crank? Or worse yet, the bearing fused to the crank? Don't laugh too much for me asking.

While I know you can't see much of the cylinder wall surface, and not sure if you can click on the photos to make them larger, but what I see seems to a pattern that would appear to a normal side load of the piston skirt. The walls seem fine, at least down low.

Crankshaft - lower engine


Crankshaft Journal






Cylinder wall





Curious as your thoughts on the main bearing/journal and what you think about what you can see on the cylinder walls. Maybe some hope here like you guys thought could be? 6,000 miles on the engine from 10 years ago.

Let me also ask about the oil pickup screen. Custom mentioned making sure to tack the next one on. The one I'm getting has the tube already welded to the pump assembly. Would tacking be a common practice on a press fit piece like this? Is the only thing holding this to the pump, the interference fit plus a big hit from a rubber mallet?



I mentioned previously I didn't know whose torque converter this was. Have never taken a photo of it before, so have included some shots all around it. Wanted to make sure I captured the entire dimension as it sits in relation for the housing, the mounting points - which if I remember correctly when the engine was out - had new holes drilled into the TC mounting plate. Making me think it came out of something else.

Anything in these photos give away who what this converter really is? What size? Hard to measure from my position under the car.

Torque Converter

Full size underneath



Mounting surface



Side shot



Distance



Maybe if the damge isn't too bad, I can get this thing pulled apart and spend a bit of cash on it. Torque converter and a water pump are needed parts in addition to the basic engine rebuild stuff. Carb plates are reasonable enough. Probably no money for a dyno test though - but I'll look into that this week.

If any major stuff is involved, then I'm toast for a bit.

Let me know what you see in the pics!

Thanks!
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2010, 05:06 PM
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Just to reply my 2cents

Quote:
Would tacking be a common practice on a press fit piece like this? Is the only thing holding this to the pump, the interference fit plus a big hit from a rubber mallet?
If you mean that the pickup tube at the oil end is welded then yeah tack the connection to the pump at that end, I don't know of any pumps coming with a pickup welded on, press fit pickup, thats why we are seeing this mess.

Pics show its time to get busy,,,needs tear down IMHO, your a busy guy.
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Old 09-05-2010, 05:35 PM
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Pics of crank show bearings pretty much welded to the crank, all your pics show the backs of the bearings, blueing from heat, and melted bearing material squeezed out the sides.

Cylinder walls look ok, you can probably reuse everything but the crank and rods. Crank may be saveable but you won't know until you get into it farther, but will definately need a regrind if it is saveable. Rods look like they got hot and are likely to be trashed. Pic 4 is showing a main bearing starting to spin but it only slipped 1/4" or so, unless that is just moved from disassembly, the bearing tangs aren't smashed flat like it would be it it spun. Cross you fingers that the block is unhurt at the mains.

Pretty much plan that the cam/lifters will be junk, possibly rocker arms(especially if stock ball type) and pushrod tips from lack of oil, but you won't know until you inspect them.

Converter is a higher stall unit, not a stocker as it is a lot smaller diameter, and appears to be a 10" which would give a 3000-3500 stall in a full body car, not so much at your light weight. You likely won't need to change that. Can't tell you who made it, several companies have used blue paint- Hughes, Alabama Boss Hog, B&M's were blue 15 years ago, Dacco, and probably some others I don't know of.

Press-fit is the only thing holding the stock pick-up, should never reuse one with out tack welding it(or a new one too for that matter if you want security), or using something like Loctite Green stud & bearing mount. Aftermarket manufacturers like Moroso also sell pick-ups that have legs that bolt to the pump cap bolts, and Melling sells performance pumps that use a bolt-on pick-up instead of press-fit.

Tell your son he forfeits his allowance for a while, all he had to do was shut it off when they saw the big "0" on the pressure guage and most of this would not have happened.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2010, 06:03 PM
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Thanks for taking a look at the pics guys!

Will find out the manufacturer of the pump my friend has. Was over yesterday and said his was welded. Methanol dragster so fortunately he is using the good stuff! Maybe his is some version of the bolt on type. We'll definitely take steps to correct the issue next time. Scary to hear this is common industry practice.

Yes, many times over the years the engine has been hot for a variety of reasons. It hasn't had an easy life! We'll see what is salvagble in a few weeks if we get started on it. If I would have ever had to rely on this car as a daily driver, I wouldn't be working! (Oh yeah, I'm not....)

Interesting on the torque converter. I know my brakes are just simple manual versions barely able to stop the car, but there is no way to hold the car with any throttle whatsoever. I'm sure that the low gears aren't helping, and I know F Bird was headed in the direction that proper timing/carb setup would alleviate the idle creep situation.

But, I just can't imagine that this TC actually works/slips anymore than a stock unit. Could it just plain be broken inside? It would really be disappointing to buy a 3000 rated TC, only to have it do this again. I agree it's small, but there isn't a hint of slip to be had to launch my car at higher than 1,000 RPM.

Catch up with ya later if something new comes up!
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Old 09-05-2010, 06:18 PM
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You likely can't get full stall from the converter because of the cars light weight(converters are load sensitive) and lack of adequate brakes. It is definately not a factory converter, not even a Vega converter. Yours is aftermarket 10" of some sort. Another typical off the shelf 3000-3500 converter will be made from the same size core, you won't benefit from a different converter unless you have one built for your specific vehicle weight and engine combo.

Rods are discolored around the big ends from oil starvation creating frictional heat, not from overheating water temps in the past. All the damage you see cam from just a few minutes running without oil.

BBC and SBC have been pressed pick-ups since their beginning, it's not a big problem with factory pumps and pressed in fits at the factory, but aftermarket pumps, pick-ups, and installation with mallets lead to problems. Reusing pick-ups just makes it worse, fit is sloppier. These end factors are what have lead engine builders and hotrodders to weld them on for safety.
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Old 09-05-2010, 06:42 PM
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The pump and the pickup were new in the rebuild - I remember is being one of those "it's only $75 for everything - cheap insurance. I can't believe it was the part that brought the engine down. Just seems like such a no brainer to secure something like this in such a high vibration enviroment.

As for the TC, I'm really glad you have brought this up. I was thinking 2400 all along, even knowing the "rules" about light/heavy cars. I didn't want something that felt like a CVT in a small car - always revving like it is supposed to, but not going like you think it should be.

This will be a real interesting conversation with a converter builder - and again, I'm sure they are going to want to know what rear axle ratio I'm going to use. I like the idea of the 3:42 and the resulting low rpm on the freeway, and I guess if we nail the performance of the engine, it will take off just as fast since I can't nail it now without execessive wheelspin.

I'm sure that is going to be another $1,000 for the gear change by the time that is done...

Good stuff!!!

Thanks!
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