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Old 03-16-2008, 09:14 PM
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Turning Newly Built Motor

I read the following answer to someone else's question about a motor that was hard to turn over by hand.

"That sounds pretty close. You're going to have an initial break-away just to turn it anyhow, and after sitting for that long, might be sticky. As long as you clearenced everythhing properly, nothing will have changed. Ditto on the crank turning socket. You break that bolt off you're headed for a big hassle."

As the last post was over 100 days, it recommended new post or new search.

We have rebuilt a 350 SBC. While putting it together, the motor was turned by hand. The motor was rotated even when all pistons were in, it was tight. The motor was left at top dead center, it has taken several weeks to get the motor installed in the vehicle. Now it won't rotate.

When adjusting the valves/lifters, the crank was left at top dead center, and only the cam was turned.

I am wondering what the "initial break away" means. Is this motor going to be hard to turn over?

Everything in the motor has been replaced. We threw everything away and started from scratch. We used good parts, and all parts are compatible.
The motor was turned and rotating often during assembly, it was done in a really cold garage with no heat, but everything was constantly oiled.

Hope yall have some ideas, spent a lot of time and a lot of money getting to this point. When we try to turn over with starter, the starter makes a clunk sound, yes the starter nothing else, and the battery does not hold a charge.

Help!

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Old 03-16-2008, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nootkabear
I read the following answer to someone else's question about a motor that was hard to turn over by hand.

"That sounds pretty close. You're going to have an initial break-away just to turn it anyhow, and after sitting for that long, might be sticky. As long as you clearenced everythhing properly, nothing will have changed. Ditto on the crank turning socket. You break that bolt off you're headed for a big hassle."

As the last post was over 100 days, it recommended new post or new search.

We have rebuilt a 350 SBC. While putting it together, the motor was turned by hand. The motor was rotated even when all pistons were in, it was tight. The motor was left at top dead center, it has taken several weeks to get the motor installed in the vehicle. Now it won't rotate.

When adjusting the valves/lifters, the crank was left at top dead center, and only the cam was turned.

I am wondering what the "initial break away" means. Is this motor going to be hard to turn over?

Everything in the motor has been replaced. We threw everything away and started from scratch. We used good parts, and all parts are compatible.
The motor was turned and rotating often during assembly, it was done in a really cold garage with no heat, but everything was constantly oiled.

Hope yall have some ideas, spent a lot of time and a lot of money getting to this point. When we try to turn over with starter, the starter makes a clunk sound, yes the starter nothing else, and the battery does not hold a charge.

Help!
Put a torque wrench on the crankshaft (with a crank socket or a bolt with a nut to lock it before the bolt bottoms out) and see what it takes to turn it. It shouldn't take more than 25-30 ft.lbs (breakaway) to move it. If it takes more than that, the engine has to come apart and be checked for mixed-up rod and/or main caps, reversed pistons, endplay not set correctly, piston domes reversed on the rods, rod fastener nicks on the crank, improper clearances, etc..........

tom
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Old 03-16-2008, 10:16 PM
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tight during assembly

"mixed-up rod and/or main caps, reversed pistons, endplay not set correctly, piston domes reversed on the rods, rod fastener nicks on the crank, improper clearances, etc.........."

We were very careful and am pretty sure of none of the above.

When the pistons were installed, it turned over good with no problems.

Have no qualms about pulling it back down it that is necessary, but have read on other postings about it taking a 3' cheater bar to turn one over. I don't necessarily agree that it should take that, but just an example of some of what I have been reading here.

One guy claimed that after the second piston it would no longer turn over by hand. We continually rotated the engine until the last few weeks while installation. Yes, it had gotten harder to turn as we added parts, the heads, etc.

I have also been assured not to use the bolt to the crank to turn one over. I will bolt to the harmonic balancer and check to see, but feel it will take more than 25-30 ft pounds.

Should it not be hard to turn with new pistons, rod, rings, etc., total head rebuild?
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Old 03-17-2008, 12:02 AM
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Did it ever turn over with the heads in place, fully assembled?
If so, it should turn now. Clearances were set in a cold ambient temp, but that shouldn't be an issue.

If it trrned assembled, I'd shoot some oil in the cylinders and give it a good pull, just not sure how strong I'd be. Machine Shop Tom has plenty of experience, see what 30# does for you, but oil first. I'd back the rockers clear off to take valve/piston clearance out of the equation to get it rolling over.
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Old 03-17-2008, 11:48 AM
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No the heads were not installed when turned over by hand.

While putting it together, the motor was turned by hand.

The motor was rotated even when all pistons were in, it was tight.

The motor was left at top dead center, it has taken several weeks to get the motor installed in the vehicle. Now it won't rotate.

When adjusting the valves/lifters, the crank was left at top dead center, and only the cam was turned. The cam still turns very easily. Only the lower end.

We have gone with a Howard's roller cam, Howard's springs that Howard's recommended, a gear drive timing system, 1.6 rockers.

We went with press-pin rod\pistons. The pins were very tight on the rod, when working them a little they seemed to move freely, but after sitting, they would feel a little sticky, did not squeak or make any noise. We used the called for lubricants, etc. The pins were not that difficult to install and the piston and rods only go together one way,

There was a suggestion: "mixed-up rod and/or main caps, reversed pistons, endplay not set correctly, piston domes reversed on the rods, rod fastener nicks on the crank, improper clearances"

The rods and or main caps will only go together one way. If the rod had been backwards on the crank, the next rod would not have fit on the crank.

The end caps only fit on one way. The flat top pistons have an arrow on them so that you have to have them pointed all the same direction.

The crank with the bearings, etc installed turned like a charm.

Please yall, keep sending me info, am reading several times a day to see what has been suggested. Soon as we get this licked will let yall know.

I so much appreciate your help!
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Old 03-17-2008, 12:01 PM
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Ummm...pressed pins shouldn't move at all in the rod, the piston moves on the pin. If your pins move in the rod it is possible that a pin worked its way out and is causing the piston to not stay square in the bore. Or it is dug into the side of the cylinder.

Were the heads shaved or milled? Did you check Piston to valve clearance? What type of tool did you use to install the rings and then install the pistons in the block? Did you notice any scratches before you bolted the heads on?
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Old 03-17-2008, 01:48 PM
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Double_v23 said:
"Ummm...pressed pins shouldn't move at all in the rod, the piston moves on the pin."

I am sorry, maybe I didn't explain correctly...
"The pins were very tight on the rod, " meaning when the pins were pressed in, to press them in were very tight, sorry.

We realize that the pins move inside the piston, but the pins in the piston are very tight. Before installing the pistons, the pin and rod did not move easily on the piston, it was extremely tight. When first moving the rod, you could hear the pin unstick itself in the piston. It did not move easily. Felt that was expected because the pins have to be tight and will loosen up when the engine turns.?

Before installation, worked the rod back and forth and it would move more easily. After letting the same piston sit off to the side for a few minutes, it would stick again. The piston was never loose enough to flop back and forth or to say differently, never had free movement, felt to be very tight would be expected. Never touched the cylinder walls or anything, cylinder walls in perfect shaped.

Also asked: "Were the heads shaved or milled? Did you check Piston to valve clearance? What type of tool did you use to install the rings and then install the pistons in the block? Did you notice any scratches before you bolted the heads on?"

Heads were not shaved or milled. Ring expander was used, the assembly went really good. No scratches anyplace.

After it sits for a while, it sticks. Will not turn by hand. Am able to break it loose, but after sits again, it sticks.
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Old 03-17-2008, 01:58 PM
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This may have already been asked but...do you have the spark plugs in or out?

also the pins should move freely in the pistons they shouldn't stick at all, these sticking pins may cause binding of the piston against the cylinder. You are correct that if they are too tight they will wear in a bit but then you will have aluminum shavings going through your engine.
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Old 03-17-2008, 02:06 PM
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The spark plugs are out.

"the pins should move freely in the pistons they shouldn't stick at all, these sticking pins may cause binding of the piston against the cylinder"
Once you move them, they stay moving, you are saying that they should flop back and forth?

I noticed the picture in your album that shows a picture of assembled rods and pistons, it appears that you have them set so that they will not flop, are they supposed to be loose?

We bought a rotating assembly, the pins, rods and pistons came together in the assembly kit.

How do I remedy the tightness? God knows, I don't want shavings in the engine.
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Old 03-17-2008, 02:07 PM
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Also used assembly lube when pressing the pins in. That should not be causing a problem, should it?
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Old 03-17-2008, 02:24 PM
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Did you press the pins on? Do you have the proper equipment for such a task? It's very possible to distort the pin boss if not done correctly. Were the pins 'fitted' to the piston, or just 'there' with the rest of your 'kit'? It's possible that your assy lube is very stiff due to the cold with tight bearing clearances it'd be like glue and likely very dificult to turn over. What were your brng clearances? As asked above, did you check your P to V clearance? How did you adjust the valves without turning the crank? If the crank was not rotated to the proper location for the specific cylinder's valve adjustment, how do you know you weren't on top of the piston with one of your valves, and now to turn it over will require you to bend a valve? Dunno, you best check everything out. Everything.
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Old 03-17-2008, 02:43 PM
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Stroke asked and stated:

"Did you press the pins on? Do you have the proper equipment for such a task? It's very possible to distort the pin boss if not done correctly. Were the pins 'fitted' to the piston, or just 'there' with the rest of your 'kit'?"

They were with the kit, but we had the proper equipment for the task.


"It's possible that your assy lube is very stiff due to the cold with tight bearing"

That was one thing I wondered.

"What were your brng clearances? As asked above, did you check your P to V clearance?"
We have 76CC heads, had the heads assembled, when the heads were set up, we were assured that there would be no clearance issues.


"How did you adjust the valves without turning the crank? "

Valves were adjusted by turning the cam once is was set at top dead center.

Appreciate input, and am paying attention, everyone's answers are helping and am taking all answers into consideration and rechecking what we can.
Keep the responses coming, please and thanks!
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Old 03-17-2008, 03:00 PM
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The pistons in that picture had bushed pins and they "flopped" freely from side to side.

If you set your pistons on the bench like that picture and the rods did not fall from one side to the other then your pins were too tight in the piston. Which will cause binding.

However...you have another problem. If you set your valves without first installing the timing chain in the correct position you probably have some valves that are not adjusted correctly (and could be touching the top of the pistons.) Adjusting the valves should be one of the last things you do.

I think the first thing you should do is back off all the rocker arm nuts and see if it rotates freely
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Old 03-17-2008, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
we had the proper equipment for the task
Have you done this before? What equipment are you using?

Quote:
"What were your brng clearances? As asked above, did you check your P to V clearance?"
We have 76CC heads, had the heads assembled, when the heads were set up, we were assured that there would be no clearance issues.
Well, I'm afeared to tell you, but, with a roller cam and 80cc heads you need to have a specific number for this clearance. Unless the valves were sunk into the bowl a mile and you have your pistons down in the hole with large valve reliefs and a thick head gasket, you're in trouble. I suspect your high lift roller has your valves all bound up. Are the pistons fly-cut? If so, for what size valves? The only way to know is to check. You did not state that you checked this all important aspect of your build, nor did you specify your actual bearing clearances. What was your ring gap??? Did you measure any actual clearances or just assume your kit was spot on?
For each cylinder valve adjustment, that specific cylinder should be in a specific point of rotation. Are you saying you set all of your valves by having number 1 @ TDC?
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Old 03-17-2008, 04:49 PM
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You say you bought a kit did you have the clearances checked out or just assumed its good?
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