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Old 04-18-2006, 04:05 PM
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twin turbo ideas?

anyone ever do a twin turbo setup on a ZZ4 smallblock with afr heads ?We (my wife and I) have had a 71 ss camaro since we got married 17 years ago and are intending to turn it into a car fit for the silver state challenge,and need all the help we can get techwise.so be gentle!

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Old 04-18-2006, 04:40 PM
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Just a thought

Twin Turbo's huh..... sound like a really good idea, Just make sure you bring your wallet. You could have custom headers fabricated, (id say btw 900-5000 bucks) and I guess you could find two turbo's such as tdo4-5 (2000 bucks al least) then you would have to tottaly blueprint this block and everything must be alloy, oh and balanced (15 - oh say 40grand).
plus.....A beefed up suspension would really help, traction bars etc. BIGGER EVERYTHING pretty much summs it up. how does a 5" open exhaust sound??
Sweet!
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Old 04-18-2006, 05:10 PM
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That last post was really way out of line. You can convert stock manifolds to work with twin turbos, and use rebuilt T3's. I would recomend forged everything and EFI, but the basic long block won't cost you 15K try more like 7K for a good one. That is assuming that you're not going over about 15PSI. Remeber to use extra large radiator, oil cooler, and intercooling. Turbocharging is not that big of a deal.
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Old 04-18-2006, 06:17 PM
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run block hugger headders and use a j pipe up to the turbos, boost refrence the fuel pump by drilling out the vent and hooking a line up to the preassurized side of the turbo ( hook it in the pipe going to the carb ) from the drilled out vent, you will need to plumb in waste gates in the exhaust also, so you don't create too much boost ), blow off valve somewhere on the preassurized side, theres a few modifications too the carbs that need done also. and of course the oil line, you will need to make a carb hat that has 2 inlets. anything over 10 PSI boost should have an intercooler, which Ebay has new 1's for around 150 all the time, always 5 listings of the same 1 or better ( same company selling all ). I'm going to turbo charge my '67 Falcon 200 I6, it's easier on a 6 because theres half the plumbing and more room to put stuff, but it's all the same. I'm getting a freebie turbo from a Buick GN. If u figure 400 for each turbo ( Genuine garret to4's go for around that on ebay ), 79.99 each for wastegates ( new price by a company on ebay ), 49 for a BOV 100 for tubing and fab supply's , it's far less than what was originally stated, u won't need forged everything but is a good idea for a lot of boost. I'd run garret T04's
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Old 04-18-2006, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 79metalguru
Twin Turbo's huh..... sound like a really good idea, Just make sure you bring your wallet. You could have custom headers fabricated, (id say btw 900-5000 bucks) and I guess you could find two turbo's such as tdo4-5 (2000 bucks al least) then you would have to tottaly blueprint this block and everything must be alloy, oh and balanced (15 - oh say 40grand).
plus.....A beefed up suspension would really help, traction bars etc. BIGGER EVERYTHING pretty much summs it up. how does a 5" open exhaust sound??
Sweet!
First off, for the most part this post if full of generalized (and somewhat inaccurate) statements in my opinion. There are lots of people that have run twin turbo systems for WAY less than he is talking. You dont need all forged components either. They are great for insurance against detonation which can be volitile under boost, but the boost itself isn't going to put that much more strain on the engine components. Under certain conditions, added boost can actually combat rod stretch. RPM's is still going to be the main factor of engine life.

There are companies selling turbo headers for a decent price, and if you look on ebay, or on a variety of forums FOR SALE section, you can find some for 200-500 bucks. If your a handy welder, you can make your own using a kit. Again, look on car forums FOR SALE sections and on ebay for your turbo's. I have seen twin turbo kits with turbos large enough to support a small block going for 900-1500 bucks. People who buy them and either dont run them anymore, or didn't have time for them sell them off at very good rates.

Balancing an engine should be done anyways if you are going to be running a decent amount of RPM. Adding turbo's isn't going to change the rate at which your components spin.

Depending on what car you have, and how much power you want to get out of this, other components may need to be upgraded. However, you transmission experiences more torque upon it launching in first gear than its going to see when your boost comes in and in later gears. With a smallblock you aren't going to need your boost to come in right away, as you'll have the torque of a smallblock to get it moving.

Twin turbo's doesn't always mean insance power. You can get the same amoung of power from a single turbo, you'll just have to run a larger turbo and thus your powerband of the turbo is going to be higher as you'll need to get that air moving faster to create boost. Running two smaller turbo's will let you create the same amount of boost, but it will come in much sooner as the demand will be divided.

A free flowing dual 2.5 inch exhaust will suffice. You'll want to pipe your wastegates back into the exhaust or it is going to sound aweful. You can use header dumps and flip them around if you want to make things easier.

My recommendations for a budget kit include some type of multiport EFI and forged pistons as insurance against detonation. Depending on your power goals (and thus the amount of boost you'll have to run) you might need to upgrade components in other areas. But a generalized statement saying you HAVE to run forged everything is very incorrect.

Dylan.
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Old 04-18-2006, 09:10 PM
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thanks for the comments to all of you ,but one

i appreciated all but one of the replies from you guys.I have given quite a bit of thought too my needs for a twin turbo set-up,using centrifugal blower info.I also am working on an intercooling system patent at this time(working on a demo model for small engine right now).My idea is being considered by a company right now(can't say too much more about that right now), as I want the patent before i do much more with any organization.All I can say is it shall be 25-35% more efficient than available intercooling technology,so to the guy with the attitude,"you're not talking to a total newbie nor an embecile".I know all the precautions to take with any kind of forced induction.I just needed more specifics on turbo units themselves.Like which turbos would be capable of producing 17-20 pounds of boost.I know it sounds like a lot,but it is attainable with dual fuel enrichment units(i.e. methanol injection at higher boost levels along with a really efficient i/c system) what ya say to that with handmade 1 7/8 headers and 3 inch dual exhaust?Also run say a F.A.S.T mpi kit with high output fuel pumps(gas and alcohol).

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Old 04-18-2006, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesinark
i appreciated all but one of the replies from you guys.I have given quite a bit of thought too my needs for a twin turbo set-up,using centrifugal blower info.I also am working on an intercooling system patent at this time(working on a demo model for small engine right now).My idea is being considered by a company right now(can't say too much more about that right now), as I want the patent before i do much more with any organization.All I can say is it shall be 25-35% more efficient than available intercooling technology,so to the guy with the attitude,"you're not talking to a total newbie nor an embecile".I know all the precautions to take with any kind of forced induction.I just needed more specifics on turbo units themselves.Like which turbos would be capable of producing 17-20 pounds of boost.I know it sounds like a lot,but it is attainable with dual fuel enrichment units(i.e. methanol injection at higher boost levels along with a really efficient i/c system) what ya say to that with handmade 1 7/8 headers and 3 inch dual exhaust?Also run say a F.A.S.T mpi kit with high output fuel pumps(gas and alcohol).

You can achieve what you want from a "cheapie junk yard twin turbo" setup by using readily available turbos and intercoolers off 86-87 Thynderbird and cougar turbo coupes. Now the hardware is the easy thing because everything is commercially available. On an early GM car, I would try to copy the engine management setup on a buick GN or a GMC Cyclone.
If you want to spend money, kits are readily available complete for from $3,500 to $6,000 not counting the 4 bolt block, forged crank, rods and pistons. You need extra strong pushrods because they have to open against the blower pressure.
None of this is Voodo. We have been racing turbo cars (Mustang Door slammers) for quite a while. We have a small block Mustang that runs 1/8 mile in 4.50 @170 on a 10.5 W tire. You can guess from the time this single turbo car is running how much power it is making.(this car will go 230 in the quarter)
Don't let these guys discourage you. Even more important don't let someone learn about turbos on your money. This science is already proven. Just find someone who really knows their business.
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Old 04-18-2006, 11:19 PM
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Boost

Boost in the 30 to 40 pound range is not out of the ordinary.
Get this together and try it at the Texas Mile in Goliad next month.
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Old 04-19-2006, 12:32 AM
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The valves shouldn't be pushing against the boost. At least the way I visualize it, if anything the boost would actually want to push the valves open as it enters. When the valves are closed, they are resting against the head in the combustion chamber. Am I incorrect?
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Old 04-19-2006, 12:44 AM
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yeah, you're right, maybe he means that the added combustion pressure would be pushing harder on the exhaust valve face (which I would say isn't accurate either...cuz the exhaust should be opening before bottom dead center...at least with MOST cams...)
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Old 04-19-2006, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siggy_Freud
The valves shouldn't be pushing against the boost. At least the way I visualize it, if anything the boost would actually want to push the valves open as it enters. When the valves are closed, they are resting against the head in the combustion chamber. Am I incorrect?
The Exhaust valves are always opened into a cylinder that is pressureized. This is why most turbo cars have been forced to use shaft rocker systems because single rockers/bolts won't stay in the helicoiled aluminum head much past 16 to 18 pounds and 30+ is not uncommon.
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Old 04-19-2006, 07:54 AM
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Do you have horsepower goal? A pair of 62-1's or a single T76 would work pretty well with your boost goal of 17-20 psi, with room to grow if needed. Or, If you want to move up to the newest tech, a pair of GT37's or a single GT42. Depends on your budget. Generally, a pair of twins will cost about the same as a larger single to move the same amount of air. It just depends on packaging constraints for your particular car what would work best. For a quality wastegate expect to spend $200+ a piece, and around that for a BOV.
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Old 04-19-2006, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orangef4
Do you have horsepower goal? A pair of 62-1's or a single T76 would work pretty well with your boost goal of 17-20 psi, with room to grow if needed. Or, If you want to move up to the newest tech, a pair of GT37's or a single GT42. Depends on your budget. Generally, a pair of twins will cost about the same as a larger single to move the same amount of air. It just depends on packaging constraints for your particular car what would work best. For a quality wastegate expect to spend $200+ a piece, and around that for a BOV.
I really like what you have done with your truck! It shows some real Hot Rod ingenuity. How did you discover that you needed to balance your carb and fuel system with boost? At first it took me a while to understand why my float bowls wouldn't fill up.
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Old 04-19-2006, 10:28 AM
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good twin or single turbo kit for universal chevys www.bbsdesigns.net
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Old 04-19-2006, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chevelle4542speed
good twin or single turbo kit for universal chevys www.bbsdesigns.net
I had looked for a long time for an exhaust like that for a Mustang. No one who sold kits would sell the headers. This is a really cheap way to build a quality performance engine. If you couple this with one of the many DFI setups available, you could easily build a very drivable street car that would run in the low 10s.
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