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Old 08-01-2012, 09:59 PM
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Two of the 4 body lines on door not lining up

I had reskinned this door, but the lines didn't line up very well. The skin didn't fit great at one part along the bottom of the door, nor was I happy with my work. So I removed it and replaced it with a better, more expensive Dynacorn skin that fit much better. And my work was significantly better as well.

If I have the two body lines for the C strip lined up, then the top of the door and body line just below that sit too high. If I even those up, then the body lines on the C strip sit way too low. I put a C clamp at the top of the door and was able to clamp the top down about an 1/8-1/4" of an inch and tacked it in place, which made an improvement, but as you can see there is still a ways to go.

Additionally, I think I'm going to have to weld some on to the edge of the door along the quarter where the gap widens out. If I try to fix that gap then I loose my C strip body lines matching up.

Any suggestions on what I can do to fix or minimize this? It looks like the door can drop down just a hair. Do I build up the top of the quarter slightly to try to split the difference?
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Old 08-02-2012, 12:36 AM
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I would do the welding on the quarter on this one cause the irregular shape is on the quarter, or it looks like that in the pic. Just stick a piece of sheet metal in there that's as wide as the flange in the jamb, bevel the edges so it blends into the jamb, and tack it in. Green and mud.

the top of the door can be bent and tweaked sometimes but it will push the very top area in. Not referring to "twisting" the door as Brian mentioned in a good thread on the site, but more like focusing on just the top. Can also try to do the quarter and sometimes with that little opening on the top of the jamb in the quarter and door it allows the metal to bend more. The best way is the less evasive and quality way. Sometimes you have to do more than one thing. Say if you bend the top and now the quarter sticks out too far. You can either deal with it on your door hinges that tilt the door, twist the door, or you can run a slice in the jamb and with a dinging spoon knock that quarter in a hair and re weld.


The door looks like it has a huge gap on the bottom to the rocker and the front of the door needs to come up to give you gap. If you push down on the back of the door on this particular situation you will lose your gap instantly, so a bit of focus on pushing the front of the door up will be easier on your lower bodylines while still giving you some of that gap back, AND it will lower those two top body lines. Not sure how the whole gap is though on the rocker as you only have a tad shown in the pics.

Might want to try lifting the front of the door first before you decide to bend anything. Sp try to semi loosen the top hinge on the a pillar, strike it with a hammer and 2x4 til you see it move the hinge up , then retighten and check your progress.

Last edited by tech69; 08-02-2012 at 12:45 AM.
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Old 08-02-2012, 12:55 AM
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I saw another post you left on a quarter seam thread and it had a pic of the quarter. Without knowing all the facts and taking a stab here I'm guessing one of the issues is you "may" have welded on the quarter a little high for your two lower gaps. In other words, the fitment of the flange tucking under the quarter and over rocker may have left it high in the front and is an issue that's quite common. I don't think I ever did a quarter where I felt I had to raise the front. It's either perfect or slightly high.
Was the quarter gap big to the rocker and/or was there no door for mock up before welding it in?
If so, that may explain why the gap to your rocker on your door is so big when you line up your lower lines , and since you cut the quarter out below the top body lines they no longer match so now the top two door lines appear to be high.

Last edited by tech69; 08-02-2012 at 01:08 AM.
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Old 08-02-2012, 08:17 AM
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I will stick by my regular mantra on correcting stuff like this, modify the WRONG part to fix the correct one. If you bought too small of shoe, do you cut your toes off so they fit? I am talking like that quarter is original, it looks like it. I don't remember reading what you had done with the quarter. If it too is a repro, then without a doubt the quarter is easier to modify. However I think it would take modifying both to get it right. But that is only if that quarter is a repro. If it's a original I would focus more on the door.

I know one thing, that bodywork on the quarter shouldn't have been done until the door was done. If you did choose to do a little tweeking on the quarter you wouldn't have to re-do your work there.

One difficult thing you are working with here are the two completely different colors primers. You can't see the gap very easily and they look SOO different they don't "match" even if the lines lined up. It should be overcome of course but it's easy to be hoodwinkled into thinking you are seeing something you're not when the colors are different like that.

Is the shape of the door correct at the rear? If you put more curve into the edge of the door it would pull down that top lip making it lower. Is there a chance that the curve of the doors shell got flattened out a bit when the skin was hemmed? It doesn't take much! If that line has been "straightened" out some, it makes the line longer, that could be pushing the top of the door up.

Sometimes you need to give up one body line a little to help another. If you were to bring the door down a little you mess up the the two body lines in the middle a hair and you help the upper ones. If you change the shape a little on the door edge and help those upper lines too, you may be able to make a happy medium out of all of them.



Brian
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Old 08-02-2012, 09:12 AM
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this is why I suggested he push up the front of the door, instead of lowering the door without losing much of the body lines. He will inturn gain some gap on the bottom, lower the top of the door, but will also lose a little on the two lower body lines. LOWERING the door will INSTANTLY loose your gaps so you pull up from the FRONT and it minimizes the effect.

This obviosly is said without even knowing the whole rocker gap(not pictured) , but if you're gonna cheat a gap it SHOULD be the rocker gap rather than the door to quarter.



First thing's first...gotta try to figure out why it doesn't line up and I think it has to do with why the rocker gap is soo big on the bottom. Just happens to be he replaced the quarter


If you go to his thread on "best quarter seam" it might show you why all the body lines aren't lining up.

Last edited by tech69; 08-02-2012 at 09:21 AM.
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Old 08-02-2012, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tech69 View Post
this is why I suggested he push up the front of the door, instead of lowering the door without losing much of the body lines. He will inturn gain some gap on the bottom, lower the top of the door, but will also lose a little on the two lower body lines. LOWERING the door will INSTANTLY loose your gaps so you pull up from the FRONT and it minimizes the effect.

This obviosly is said without even knowing the whole rocker gap(not pictured) , but if you're gonna cheat a gap it SHOULD be the rocker gap rather than the door to quarter.
You are absolutely right, it is a dance, you need to go everywhere moving the front of the door up may very well take care of a lot of this poor fit on the rear.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tech69 View Post
First thing's first...gotta try to figure out why it doesn't line up and I think it has to do with why the rocker gap is soo big on the bottom. Just happens to be he replaced the quarter


If you go to his thread on "best quarter seam" it might show you why all the body lines aren't lining up.
OH YEAH! HOLY COW Lizer you completely finished the replacement of the quarter without going to the door! That is a big no-no. You need to work with both of them at the same time. Clamp the quarter into place then do the door and see where you are at.

Brian
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Old 08-02-2012, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
You are absolutely right, it is a dance, you need to go everywhere moving the front of the door up may very well take care of a lot of this poor fit on the rear.




OH YEAH! HOLY COW Lizer you completely finished the replacement of the quarter without going to the door! That is a big no-no. You need to work with both of them at the same time. Clamp the quarter into place then do the door and see where you are at.

Brian
yep, and the gaps should be somewhat more decent before tweaking anything as those slight movements also tweak the lines. Admittingly, as a younger guy, I find myself running circles around the older guys in mud but the yodas like yourself are the true masters at the metal and panel allignment. The Yoda we have at the shop is amazing. I learn something every day .
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Old 08-02-2012, 08:49 PM
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Lot of stuff here, I'll try to address it in general...

Yes, the gap between the rocker and bottom of the door is rather large. And yes, because of the two different colors of primer/paint it currently sits in at the moment it's very difficult to see the gap, which is why I didn't do a LOT to it yet. That door jamb is going in epoxy soon, and then everything will be uniform. That's also the reason I didn't take a picture; you couldn't really see anything from the picture.

I realize the importance of a door gap before installing the quarter. Before installing the quarter skin I addressed the gap so I would have it for reference....I actually had the new door skin on to reference it against the factory quarter before I did the quarter. However when it came to installing the quarter skin it seemed there was only one way I could install that panel on there and I didn't have much room for adjustment. I had it screwed into place and really don't remember how the lines were down the door. I had a difficult time getting it to sit down nice and tight against the rocker...it was leaving a bit of a gap which is something Henry was asking about. I wailed on that flange pretty good from the inside to try to get it down as far as I could but it was difficult.

However, looking back at the pictures of when I was doing the quarter skin work, the body lines on the door are lined up with the lines of the original quarter so unfortunately it would seem my issue is really stemming from the quarter not being sat down good enough.

So if I can make some corrective adjustments to the door and see where that gets me, I'll go that route first. But I'm not above going back and correctly fixing the root of the problem either, even if it requires some backtracking. I wasn't ever really planning on painting this thing anyways...

Last edited by Lizer; 08-02-2012 at 08:57 PM.
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Old 08-02-2012, 10:07 PM
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You have thought it out pretty well. How about a photo of the front of door as well? Is the fender on? How about the height of the drivers door, does it fit better?

Brian
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Old 08-03-2012, 05:55 AM
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This weekend I'm planning on getting the door and jamb in epoxy so that will make for better pictures. Once that happens I can get some pics. The door on the driver's side is perfect, but it was hung by a pro body shop when they were putting that quarter on the other side because the car had to go on the frame machine.

This occurred to me right as I went to bed last night (and then I proceeded to think about it all night and not sleep of course...)

The reason only 2 of the 4 body lines line up is because only two of the 4 body lines were replaced! The very top two body lines on the quarter are still original metal...never moved or replaced. They are right where they should be. However, the two lines that make the C stripe line are from the skin, which is probably sitting a little higher than what it probably should be.

Brian, the fender is currently off the car.
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Old 08-03-2012, 08:21 AM
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How about the door height it's self. I am talking measuring the actual height of the rear of the door. I am not talking in relation to the body, I am talking JUST the door. How does it measure up with the original door? Is that skin on the top sticking off the top of the shell?

If the top of the quarter is correct, then there is NOTHING to think about, it's the door skin above the center body lines that is too tall. That is of course if the door is where it needs to be in the body.

It's the DOOR that isn't low enough for that top to line up. That is where you are at NOW, once that is low enough, then the body lines will be off in the center, why? That is what you will need to work with, why are those body lines off. Is the quarter too high there, or is the door lines too low on the repro skin?

I am thinking it's going to be a combination of the two, PLUS the top of the door is up too high to begin with, that skin is taller than the original. You said you had fought to get that quarter down, in doing so you could have bent that flange at the bottom down at the rocker, this would have LIFTED the quarter. So that maybe a bit of the reason. This is why like aligning panels they all need to be done together, it's a dance between all of them.

So the first thing would be to get that door adjusted down. You need to pay attention to the height of the front of the door to the A pillar, compare it with the other side. But if the skin is too tall there, you will be fighting that too. But just start playing with it, don't commit to anything until the fender gets on there too.

Like I said, it's a dance and all partners need to be involved.

Another thing you need to be aware of is how the shell of the door is fitting to the door jamb of the body. If this skin is way off and you try to adjust the door to fit the outside and ignore the inside where the shell fits against the body you could make it too close or too far where the rubber doesn't hit or there isn't room for it as it smashes it to bits when you close the door!

These old cars had a LOT of adjustment (WAY too much) and you can literally often adjust the door too far in or out so where the rubber hits the body to seal the door is too close or too far away. So you need to be aware of all these areas in the dance to make these panels fit.

You don't need to trial fit the rubber, but you do need to look at the distance it is all the way around from the pinch weld in the door jamb. Be sure it looks like the original side (if you have that to go on).

Brian
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Old 08-03-2012, 10:28 PM
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The fixes for this are tedious to say the least.

1) you can cut out the quarter and redo it. With your door that's alligned even to your rocker, with the front edge of door flush with front of rocker and the two top bodylines even(quarter to door).

2) you can cut out the c lines and relocate them to match the lines on the door with the door alligned even to your rocker, with the front edge of door flush with front of rocker and the two top bodylines even(quarter to door). If you do this the easiest way would be to do a backing strip since you can't flange a hole with the same piece you cut out of it, and because a butt weld would be hell cause you're shifting the piece cut out. You can use a backing strip and rust protect the hell out of the backside and no one will know...but us.

3) you can bend the door top and live with a huge gap to your rocker OR you can weld in a strip on the rocker to close the gap, but that's a lot of work.

4) you can say fudge it and green it and mud it.

5) you can stand in front of that area anytime someone checks out your car.

Seems like option 2 would be fixing what needs to be fixed without getting all crazy over it, but sometimes people want to do just that. If you still have your old quarter you can cut that piece out with a little extra, then cut out a smaller window on that area of the car. Then you can screw it in so it lines up perfect, scribe, cut it on the side of the line that leaves you more metal, and butt weld it in. That would be the easiest and best way in my opinion.

As for the fender, the fender is what I call the push over panel. It's at the mercy of everything around it. It gets pushed around by the door that's telling it he's right and the fender better move. So then the fender moves and then the hood is telling it to get away. Sometimes the fender is lucky and has a cowl vent to tell him where to stand his ground but at other times the cowl vent is at the mercy of others too and can be shifted around. So you could most likely not worry about the fender now but since most of the fixes require major surgury it wouldn't be a bad idea to put on the fender to clarify that the problem actually is stemming from the quarter, which I think it is.
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Old 08-04-2012, 07:22 AM
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Didnt you adjust the old door and the gaps BEFORE you replaced the 1/4,then replace the 1/4 with the door on so you could adjust the 1/4 to the door and make sure everything lined up with good gaps...
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Old 08-04-2012, 08:33 AM
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It sounds like he did Mike, the problem is the repro door skin fits like size 6 shoes on Shaq.

Brian
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Old 08-04-2012, 09:43 AM
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I think it's the quarter. He should measure the distance between the lines to know for sure it would either tell him it's the door or the quarter. Would help to run tape directly down the middle of the peaks on the bodylines to get accurate measurements. Friendly wager it's the quarter?

Last edited by tech69; 08-04-2012 at 09:50 AM.
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