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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 01-26-2010, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentwings
I forgot about the wet manifolds but doesn't the water that cools the manifold get dumped into the pipes a ways aft of the manifolds. I had a humps on my my old boat and the water entered the pipes aft of that then out the transom. If so you could inatall the 02 sensor between the manifold and the humps. It can not get wet however. You could even run a temporary one into a check port for it then remove it for running after you get it set up.
It depends on the style of manifold. Some have seperate manifolds and risers. Of the ones that do, some are gasketed to allow water to pass between the 2, and some transfer the water via an external hose. The latter is easier to add an O2 port, but but both are possible. If we end up with one piece manifolds (manifold and riser are one piece), it wouldnt be possible.

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 02-04-2010, 10:13 AM
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I finally called Herbert this week and was disappointed. They dont have reverse rotation blanks, claim they couldnt grind one if I got them one, and they dont sell anything tame enough for my application (all 6500+ rpm cams). I guess theyre out!

Can anyone else recommend a smaller outfit that really knows their stuff and might be able to help me? Maybe Comp is better with BBC's than they are with SBF's... I have not been very impressed with their Ford cams. With similar lift and duration numbers, they were about 30hp down on the desktop dyno compared to my Cam Research piece. Id rather not leave free horsepower on the table!

If there are no other places worth pursuing, any input on whether Id like the XM278H (from their Xtreme Marine line) vs. the XE274H (from their Xtreme Energy line)?
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 02-04-2010, 10:24 AM
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Cam Motion is a company my machinist uses regularly, and he has been VERY happy with their work,
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 02-04-2010, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickracer
Cam Motion is a company my machinist uses regularly, and he has been VERY happy with their work,
A very good company and Bullet cams is another good one also. .
http://www.bulletcams.com/ . http://www.cammotion.com/

Cole
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 02-04-2010, 05:31 PM
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Thanks for the leads guys! I will call Bullet tomorrow if I get a chance. Im not sure who I spoke to at Cam Motion, but whoever it was sure knew their stuff. I would love to have them build something for me- very knowledgable. It sounds like they cant get the reverse rotation flat tappet blanks either- though he could grind me one if I were to source one. He makes his own billet (roller) blanks, but cant make a reverse rotation version since the snout for the gear drive is different. Going to a chain drive would be possible, but then Id be swapping gears on the distributor and oil pump... and Im not sure if reverse cut gears are available for those. He said he could regrind my existing cam, but was limited with what he could do since he wouldnt have a ton of material to work with...

...so I will keep searching for a blank! Comp didnt want to sell their blanks last time I spoke with them, unfortunately.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 02-04-2010, 06:17 PM
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Camotion

Hey TRB, Pull your cam and have it built into anything you want. I mentioned this before. If you spoke to the owner, his name is Kip. He's a good ol home town boy that will sit down and talk about what you want. I had the pleasure of talking with him on cam eating issues in a 468. I ain't sure about it, but he might be able to rework the lobes into a low lash solid roller design. Solid roller with low maintenance. You're gonna need to keep it moderate on the cam if you don't upgrade the exhaust, else its gonna run like a shack of schit. If you do a serious enough exhaust system, then you can throw some more cam at it. Just trying to help you out. Been there, done that. olnolan

Oh, I forgot to mention Kip grinds the top secret cams for alot of NHRA record holders and circle track guys as well. He might be the best kept secret in alot of venues.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 02-05-2010, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLNOLAN
I ain't sure about it, but he might be able to rework the lobes into a low lash solid roller design.
My understanding is the roller and flat tappet blanks are different (forged vs. cast). I think once a flat tappet, always a flat tappet. Like I said, there would be limitations on what he could build if he were starting with my original cam- but that may be the way I end up going. Im going to make a few more calls first to see if I can source a fresh blank.

Im not surprised that he's a well kept secret. This seems to be the way things are in race circles... he sure knew his stuff though! Speaking with him left me with a similar impression I got from Cam Research on my Ford stuff. Would love to do business with him.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2010, 09:22 AM
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Quick update. No one Ive called has the reverse rotation blanks... except for Comp. They have 13. Not sure if any others exist anywhere! I begged and pleaded for them to sell me one, but was told that theyre not in the cam blank business- they want to sell me a cam. We talked about my application and they recommended the XM278H. One of the 2 I was eyeballing, not bad. They want to see my original cam in person before shipping it out for me (the reverse rotation is a custom grind, ie non-refundable), but that's what Ill be going with.

Assuming I ran the stock 330hp peanut port cam last summer, their thought is that I would gain power everywhere- including down at 2500-3000rpm where I need it for holeshot. Ill see if Comp can measure it for me while they have it so I can compare my desktop dyno results. My gut feeling is we were peaking around 400hp somwhere in the 4500-5000rpm range. The new cam should be good for 455hp at 5500. If we indeed pick up 50 hp then we should turn an extra 300-500 more RPM at WOT with the same prop. That should have us maxing out right around our hp peak, optimizing top speed. Id love to have this tugboat flirting with 60mph.



Hopefully this will be the short term solution that we've been looking for!
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2010, 09:13 PM
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Did you try isky cams?? Used to be one of my favorites back in the auto shop days.
http://www.iskycams.com/
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2010, 09:38 PM
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Exhaust

Hey Man, What did you use for an exhaust entry into the program? I played around with the computer dyno a bit and used stock exhaust manifolds with mufflers as an entry. Numbers matched pretty close to factory ratings on a 502 simulation. I figured the logs pushing water was about the same as manifolds and mufflers.olnolan
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 02-09-2010, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLNOLAN
Hey Man, What did you use for an exhaust entry into the program? I played around with the computer dyno a bit and used stock exhaust manifolds with mufflers as an entry. Numbers matched pretty close to factory ratings on a 502 simulation. I figured the logs pushing water was about the same as manifolds and mufflers.olnolan
I cant tell you exactly what my buddy plugged into the system... but he's a boat guy and has gotten very good at finding a close equivalent to the stock marine exhaust manifolds. He basically takes the stock engine components and plays with the exhaust options until he finds a combo that puts out the stock hp numbers- then he holds the exhaust components constant as he plugs in the new numbers (head flow data, cam, etc). The results above are with the simulated stock exhaust. If we upgrade to headers, or at least some better flowing logs, then hopefully those numbers end up being conservative.

I didnt call Isky, but maybe I will. The guy from Comp seemed to know his stuff (the first tech from Comp that actually inspired confidence, ha) so I think we'll go that way this time. Ive got a plan for next time though.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 03-08-2010, 10:04 AM
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Ok, its been a month... quick update here.

I pulled the cam and sent it to Comp. The tech wanted to confirm the exact cam we had before he custom ground a new one. Turns out the blanks lined up perfectly... so the XM278H should be on its way soon. I also convinced him to sell me a RR blank, as there seem to be very few left. Should cover me for any future plans.

While it was there, I had them measure up my stock cam so I could do a delta on the desktop dyno. Looks like the experts here were right- the thing was tiny! .459/.478, 213/216, 112 LSA. Desktop dyno shows 368hp @ 4500 RPM... which would explain why we didnt go faster with a smaller prop (5200 vs. 4900 RPM). If the software is accurate, we'll lose 10-15hp below 3000 RPM (easily offset with the weight loss) and almost 90hp at the peak. The biggest delta will be at high RPM's- we're looking at picking up around 200hp at 5000 RPM's... yikes! It will be VERY interesting to see how the boat performs in a few months! Heres the preview:



We also pulled the pan to check out the bottom end... havent measured the clearances yet, but at a glance, I believe this may be a 4-bolt block. Am I correct?

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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2010, 11:18 AM
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No response necessary, I suppose- I confirmed that its a 4-bolt. Still getting my eyes calibrated on the BBC... first time tearing into the bottom end of a motor as well.

Question about valvetrain... Ive read a few threads on here that suggest the stock stamped rockers arent the best to use with aggressive cams. I dont think my XM278H (.555/.565) would be considered all that aggressive compared to some of the builds Ive seen here, but Im not sure exactly what the limitations are of the stock rockers. Should I be ok to run them? Im toying with the idea of upgrading to full rollers (I doubt I would bother at all with roller tips)... probably go with Crane or Scorpion. Anything else I should be aware of before pulling the trigger on a set? I'd be sticking with the stock 1.7 ratio. I figure a new set of taller valve covers will be in order as well.

Thanks in advance!
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Old 01-26-2012, 01:56 PM
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Back from the dead!

It occurred to me that I never brought this thread full circle. Not that the story is *quite* complete yet, but I can at least bring it current...

We didnt finish the boat in time to get it in the water in 2010. The structural work took longer than expected, as did the final rigging of the engine, running gear, and other misc projects that we tackled "while we were in there".

So the motor sat largely finished until late spring, 2011- it looked like this:



We broke it in properly- used a generous amount of EOS (poured right into the valley), 30w Valvoline VR1, primed the oil pump, used only the outer valve springs, etc. Varied the RPM a little +/- 2500rpm for 25 min, then shut it down and changed the oil.

After reinstalling the valvesprings and rockers, we dropped it in the lake for the first time in 2 years. It ran great! The caveat: after 2 laps around the lake, we found water in the oil. Traced it back to the shiny aluminum exhaust manifolds (which I had bought used on good faith). We stuck the old cast iron manifolds back on, changed the oil several times until it looked clear (we started out with Mobil1 15w50 and ended up with VR1 20w50)... and all seemed well for a few weeks- the stock manifolds seemed to rob 200-300 RPM from the top end, but it otherwise performed great. I took it out to an annual owner's reunion where it came up just short of the "fastest boat" award (58.4 mph). Not bad!





Our glory was short lived, however... in a bonehead move, I overheated the engine after picking up some weeds and hydrolocked it. So I went home with my tail between my legs. Did a little bit of investigating over the next few weeks. Water kept finding its way into the cylinders after sitting for a while. Did a compression check and it came back fine. Pulled the intake, the valley looked clean (no trace of water). We are pretty confident in our diagnosis... the overheat cracked the stock exhaust manifolds. Tore the heads off too, just to be safe- and all looked fine. So we ordered new manifolds and started to reassemble everything... and just as we were about to close it up, I discovered this on cyl #7:



Upon closer inspection, the cam was beat up too. Dammit!

So that put an early end to our summer, major bummer.

So now the question is, what to put back in? Comp is now out of reverse rotation blanks- but we have 2 spares that we ordered 2 years ago. So we could go back with another flat tappet. Or... we're considering going roller. This isnt an inexpensive proposition, but we found someone who has invested in a small run of reverse rotation billet blanks, that can be used with our existing gear/gear timing set. We'd be looking at $750 for the cam, plus $525 for the lifters (the cam builder only uses Morel's "race" version), plus another $200 for new valve springs. So ~$1500 for the upgrade.

Its a big dollar upgrade on a project that is already overbudget by a long shot... but I REALLY dont want to tear this motor out again anytime soon. I suspect I know what the answer will be, but any input or advice would be appreciated!
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2012, 05:52 AM
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Hey, I dont work on small boats,only big Diesels Vikings,Bertrams etc.
Why dont you go to SAE rotation n get rid of the Borg Warner n put a ZF trans in there you can run RH input rotation into these,of course the prop would have to be changed but I think most of ur problems trying to find parts will go away then.
Call ZF n find out if a trans is available for your app.
Im almost sure it is.
All modern twin engine boats have SAE rotation on both port n stb engines
the port trans is just put into rev to go fwd,but the input into the trans is the same.
Call ZF n Im sure they will help
If u want send me a private message n I can tell u who to talk to
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