Hot Rod Forum banner

Update Pics: Bearing Failure.....what caused it

12K views 78 replies 28 participants last post by  rifraf 
#1 ·
Hey guys,

I got the engine out of my S-10 today and so far things are not a complete loss. I found that the main bearings are completely gone and got so hot they had lost their tension. Rod bearings are not too bad. I think that both rods and mains on the crank will need to be turned. As far as I can tell everything else is okay, but I have not gotten completely through it.

The big question is: what the hell caused this? For those who dont know or remember I had a plugged oil passage on the lifter galley when I first started the engine. I was able to blow out the crap and isolated it so it did not go to the bearings. My thinking is that there was probably other debris somewhere else that started in on the bearings. Let me know your thoughts. I have not talked to my machinst yet, but I paid him to do block prep for assembly.......

Chris
 
See less See more
2
#2 ·
I would say some of the debris plugging up the cam gallery got into the main oil feeds. They do feed from the same location....
Also, if the bypass for the oil filter openend (assuming you haven't blocked it) it wouldn't take long for some of that debris to chew up the bearings. I'd check the cam and oil pump to be extra sure. The gears in the pump will probably be chewed up pretty good.
 
#3 ·
Tear down

Doc here:pimp:

Before you send the block back, After you tear it down, Get a big drip pan you can set it in standing up and wash it down with Lacquer Thinner and pressure, and see what washes out, Bet ya find Machine Sand/ Shavings in it...

Even real Good machinists Space it from time to time...That's why it's always a good idea to wash it before you assemble it yourself, It dosen't hurt a thing, and It saves the pain of having to redo your good work again.

Sorry to see that man..

Doc :pimp:
 
#4 ·
I have always paid for cam bearing and plug installation and block cleaning. I have never had a problem before this one. With the plugs and bearings installed there is not much that can be done to get everything cleaned out so you kindof have to rely on the machinist unless you do it all. It is a real bummer

I think that all the debris should be easy to remove this time since I will be doing it myself. Hopefully the machinist can admit the mistake. I really think that is the issue. I think that if it was and oil delivery or heat issue the rods would have had the same problem.


Chris
 
#6 ·
Just kinda looks like no oil got to em and they overheated. A guy I know always took a brush(like a pipe cleaner) and cleaned out all the places that sometimes the cleaning at the machine shop dont get to. Im lost about what happened. HG
 
#7 ·
Heat

Doc here:pimp:

And usually a heat issue (oil starvation) Will show a Bluish Burning or "Etch" in all the bearings...I didn't see any there...It looked more like simple contamination...The rods probably faired better, simply because they were getting dipped in oil on each revolution, where the mains don't have that option.

I hope they do you right by the job...most guy's will.

Doc :pimp:
 
#8 ·
Man Turbo, that's a bummer. I always clean everything myself, even when I didn't build engines for a living. I consider it to be the number one important part of engine building basics.

Did you spin any bearings? It looks like that rod cap had the bearing turn in it.

I guess that was the bearing insert I'm seeing in the pic, not the actual cap.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Hi Chris
I agree with Narib on this one.
It does look like one did spin on the cap to me.
When you had the plugged oil passage on the lifter galley and first started the engine that was too late, the debris got into the motor from it.
How high was the PSI on the turbo ?
George :pain: :(
 
#12 ·
TurboS10 said:
I have always paid for cam bearing and plug installation and block cleaning. I have never had a problem before this one. With the plugs and bearings installed there is not much that can be done to get everything cleaned out so you kindof have to rely on the machinist unless you do it all. It is a real bummer

I think that all the debris should be easy to remove this time since I will be doing it myself. Hopefully the machinist can admit the mistake. I really think that is the issue. I think that if it was and oil delivery or heat issue the rods would have had the same problem.


Chris
I never let the machine shop install the cam bearings and block plugs. I allways write on the shop ticket that they are not to be intalled. The one time that that they did install them I refused to to pay for them. They said they wouldn't charge for the labor but that they couldn't give me the bearings for free. I offered to come back with my cam bearing driver and knock them out and give them back. They gave up the fight after that.
 
#13 ·
There are no spun bearings. The rod cap still has the bearing in it. You can see it is much better than the mains. Since the rods are fed by the mains, I cant see it being a delivery problem. The engine ran for way too long and never did sieze. It did start to idle lower at the last due to the bearings being chewed to pieces. I wish you could see the bearings in person. They are cut up BAD! The back side of the bearings is actually blue from heat. I think that all the chunks is the bearing wadding up. You can see in the one pic that the liner is peeling off of the third bearing and one of them is already gone.

I dont have the cam out yet, but all of the lobes look good. It had not really developed any valve trane noise so I think all is okay. Something could, of course, show up when I get more of it apart. I have to think from what I saw so far that the trash in the block is what caused this. I guess when I had the plugged passage I should have pulled the engine, but hind site is always 20/20. My machinist said it is not that uncommon to have the particular place plugged that I have. It is the tiny passage under the rear cam bearing.

Chris
 
#14 ·
Shop

Doc here :pimp:

So, Did the machinist say they were going to do right by you?

Maybe kick in on the parts too?

Seems like It shouldn't have happened if the block were More carefully cleaned and inspected when they had it?

Doc :pimp:
 
#15 · (Edited)
:boxing: stop being nice to the machinist, you paid for a job to be done.
Man.. Chris you have so much time & money in the motor I would demand all parts and machining is at his cost at minimum.
Like you stated he said yes they do plug in that area then HE should have checked it.
Don't forget to clean to turbo line's to be safe.
LOL
 
#16 ·
I have not talked to the machinist yet. I wanted to see what everyone thought from the pictures and what I am seeing before I go talk to him. I am not too sure what to push for. I will have to have bearings, and gaskets along with having the crank turned. The crank thing really ticks me off since this is a brand new 4340 eagle crank.

I will definately clean out the block and all feed lines to the oil cooler and turbo since I am sure it all saw debris. Looks like my winter will be busy building this damned thing again.

Chris
 
#20 ·
bearings

Turbo S-10, Did you assemble this engine your self??? If so do you have all the main and rod clearences recorded and what were they???

Refresh my memory on what debris you had in the engine before this.. I do remember the pictures of what you found in the filter..



Keith
 
#21 ·
k-star,

I did assemble the engine myself. The rods were all at .002 and the mains at .0025-.003. I measured and plastiguaged every journal and did not see any taper or anything out of the ordinary. The crank spun smooth as glass when it was torqued in the block. The fact that I assembled it myself is actually more of a problem when I talk to the machinist since he does not know whether or not I did it properly.

When I first cranked the engine I did not have oil to one lifter galley. When I primed the engine I happened to pull the valve cover that had oil......go figure. When I cranked the engine the lifter noise did not go away after a minute or so like normal so I started investigating. After talking to my machinist we came up with a blockage under the rear cam bearing area where the oil feeds through to the distributor hole. He said it was not to uncommon and suggested that I pull the distributor and use compressed air to blow the passage clean. After looking we decided that putting main air from my compressor on the rear oil pipe plug would force the debris out of the hole and into the pan via the distributor hole(with distributor removed). I did this and it worked like a charm.

My thinking is that if there was crap in the oil passage there, then was probably elsewhere as well. I think that my machinist engine cleaner grunt was feeling lazy the day he did my block.

Chris
 
#22 ·
Those are some heartbreaking photos... Sorry about your luck.

Just a few months ago, I took my block to a machinist to have it bored and cam bearings put in, when I got it back, I inspected everything. I ran my finger into some of the oil holes in the block and noticed that my finger would turn black from not being 100% clean. To be safe I took it too another well known machine shop to re-cleaned and inspected.

Let us know what the machine shop says....


Ben
 
#23 ·
Ben,

I can remember noticing similiar stuff on this engine, but it has been over a year ago so I dont remember too good. I did go ahead and spray solvent in the oil holes I could get to and used compressed air to blow them clean. I did not get anything large out, but I think that It was probably stuck on and the oil detergents worked it all loose and feed a healthy helping to the bearings. I am still holding out hope that I find something else. I would like to think that I am going to find something when I finish disassembly, but I am not holding out much hope. I just dont see how anything else could cause this.

Chris
 
#24 ·
bearings

Chris, i feel your pain brother!!!!

It sounds like you used sound assembly procedures to assemble you engine. I do prefer using measuring equipment over plastigage but i don't feel that's an issue here. The bearing in the picture closest to the cap is classic debris... The one closer to the back of the picture looks like oil starvation. But being that the rods didn't look as bad as the mains i would still vote for debris. There was also an issue with you buying a use turbo. There is still the chance it was full of the death material and got washed through your engine.

One thing i do ( even with the blocks i wash my self) before i start final assembly i power wash the block by hand, running brushes in all the holes. I generally get soaked doing it but i know for sure they are spotless clean..... Also i run brushes through the crank holes, weather it's a new crank or a re-grind. you will be suprised how much crap you can get out of them.....

I'll bet the next time you put this back together it will be spotless inside??????

Keith
 
#25 ·
Re: bearings

k-star said:
There is still the chance it was full of the death material and got washed through your engine.

I'll bet the next time you put this back together it will be spotless inside??????

Keith
I did spray the turbo down with solvent and wash and blow it out thouroughly. I really dont think that there was that much material if any from it. Even if there was, the filter should have caught it. If the bypass was opening for some reason I guess it could cause the problem. Anyone know what kind of pressure it takes to make the bypass open? I have always been curious about that.

Chris
 
#26 ·
by pass

I do remember years ago seeing a test on filters and the by pass. If my memory serves some new filters were restrictive enough to let the by-pass open when the filter was new..... So right from the get-go the by pass was partially open.. I always plug all mine and run a good quality filter ( K&N or napa gold) I know when you pop them out of the adapter some of the springs feel like wet noodles. I would think those are open all the time......

Keith
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top