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Old 11-15-2013, 08:53 AM
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I have a 95 4x4 Suburban with a 383 stroker 340hp 435ft pounds torque.
It keeps eating transmissions when I tow my 26ft enclosed work trailer. Have had it rebuilt 3 times; in less than 25,000 miles. I have been told that the 4l60 is not stout enough for the hp and torque.
I am looking at a either a new 4l70e or 4l80e. I have heard that modifications will have to be done if I go to the 4l80e. If so what are they and how much more will it cost. The 4l80e is already $500. over the 4l70e. I plan to get the torque converter that matches either one.
One more question, what does stall speed mean in a torque converter and why is it important?
Thanks

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Old 11-15-2013, 02:58 PM
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You won't be able to use the 4L70E unless you use a standalone controller.The ECM in your truck won't work with it & to be honest,the 4L70 is not much better in terms of strength.For your power level & usage,the 4L60E should hold up if properly built.The 95 model was a standalone year & did seem to have more problems tho.Make sure you have adequate cooling to the trans & NEVER EVER tow,or,haul heavy loads in 4th gear.Always use D not OD when towing/hauling.The 4L80E is a lot stronger & better built trans,however,it's not an easy plug n play swap,especially on a 4x4.The transfer case & drive shaft will also have to be changed.The crossmember will need modification & relocated farther back on the frame.There will also be some repinning of the connectors/wiring along with a few other changes for proper operation.It can be done,but,it is a job.You will also need a specific year model.I'm not sure which yrs will interchange on the 4L80E.
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Old 11-15-2013, 03:07 PM
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Are you sure the trans is actually going bad & that you don't have other issues?There are several things that can make the electronic trans appear to be bad.A bad TPS,bad wiring,solenoids,loose broken wires/connectors,bad ECM.Also,if your running a cam with a lot of duration & a highgeared rear w/ a stock convertor'this could also cause excessive heat in the trans.You can increase the stall,but,for towing'you don't wanna get outrageous with the stall.Prolly no more than 2500 or so.How much weight are you pulling?
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Old 11-15-2013, 03:48 PM
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Thanks for the reply. I am pulling about 8000 lbs. plus the weight of the suburban
I have a heavy duty trans cooler and always drive in 3rd not overdrive when towing. GM Performance Parts says that the 4l70 will drop in with no modifications. All the trans shops say that for the heavy trailer I am hauling with the torque and hp of the engine the 4l60 is not designed for that load.
I went to gm site and the 4l80 is rated for 685 ft pounds of torque, 4l70 is 495 ft # the 4l65 is 430 ft # the 4l60 is 370. Since I a running 435 ft# torque I thought that the 4l70 was the best match for the money. Buying it new is cheaper than what aamco charged for a rebuild and the same as what one of the other shops charged to rebuild my 4l60. I figured newer is better than rebuild since they really only change the parts that are broken, leaving sensors and servos that are still good.
On one of the 4l60's the controller is the same part # as 4l70. I just don't have faith in rebuilds anymore.
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Old 11-15-2013, 04:18 PM
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Yeah,8,000 lbs is too much for a 4L60E.They can be built to reliably handle 450HP & 500 torque,but,with that much weight,you are better off with a 4L80E.I am 99.9% sure that your OBD1 ECM will not work with the 4L70E.I looked into getting 1 for my 97 OBD2 & was even told that I would have to use another controller by GMPP.As I stated above,the 95 4L60E is a stand alone year & has different electronics inputs & outputs than any other year.It also is not a direct swap.You will have to buy an adapter kit for proper spacing,etc.GM sells the kits for approx $150.
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Old 11-15-2013, 05:07 PM
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I'm not sure where you got those ratings from,but,they are way high for the 4L65E & 4L70E.The 4L60 is rated approx 360 ft/lb.The 4L65 @ 380 & the 4L70 is only slightly higher while the stock 4L80 is under 500 in stock form.The 4L70 is not much better than the 4L60 or 4L65.For the usage your describing,the 4L70 won't hold up in stock form.The 4L80 is a higher upfront cost & more work,but,it will only take 1 rebuild on the others to eat that initial costs up.I think if you go with either the 4L65 or 4L70 in stock form,you are gonna be disappointed.

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Old 11-15-2013, 05:24 PM
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All rebuilds are not bad.A lot of the shops do exactly as you state.In an electronic trans,you have to do a full rebuild,replace all solenoids,sensors,pretty much everything.My truck has the 4L60E.I am turning approx 300 HP & 360 torque approx.I compete several times a year in local truck pulls,regularly pull a 4000 # trailer w/ 2000# of horse & tack.Do a lot of mudding on a regular basis.Then drive 100 miles a day to work & back home round trip.My original tranny went out @ 418,000 miles.I now have 546,000 miles on the truck.So,knock on wood,I have around 130,000 on a rebuild & it isn't pampered @ all.Taken care of & maintained,but,not pampered.
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Old 11-15-2013, 05:58 PM
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Thanks for the info, I got my figures from gmperformance site. I guess I will go with the 4l80 and pay the extra cost. It is like good insurance (not OBama care). Worth the extra for peace of mind and no breakdowns and unplanned hotel stays. I have had enough of those in the past 2 years. I guess i wil get it from GM. I will have to find instructions on how to do the swap.
Thanks, Jeramiah
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Old 11-15-2013, 06:11 PM
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Unless they have made some serious upgrades recently,the rating you list for the 4L70 is closer to the rating for the 4L80.They may have printed them wrong.That happens a lot.Do a google on the swap.There is a lot of info on it.The 4L80 was used in a lot of 3/4 & 1 ton trucks,as well as vans & even some Suburbans.You will need to see which yrs will interchange for your application.I think for what your doin,the 4L80 is the best & safest bet.
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Old 11-15-2013, 06:21 PM
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Thanks again
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Old 11-17-2013, 09:25 AM
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Are you guys sure that a 4l70e wont work in a 1995 truck? There is a TCC incompatibility, but that can be taken care of by making the TC apply on or off, instead of PWM that the 70e uses.

If it can control a 4l60e, it should be able to control a 4l65e or 4l70e. The 70e has teh extra turbine speed sensor, but since the 95 didnt use it, you wont need it wired.

If it can control a 4l60e it can control a 4l80e.

I would look into the 4l80e/85e if I was towing heavy, much stronger trans than the 70e.

peace
Hog
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Old 11-17-2013, 10:49 AM
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as Hogg mentions a 70e or 75e will bolt in and work in this truck if valve body is setup correctly. The 70e is same design as 4l60e. Slightly better hard parts, same basic soft parts.

At 8k pounds trailer and a 4k+ vehicle , the 4l60 is the wrong trans.

Install a 4l80e trans. Expense of conversion may be worth it or buy different vehicle
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Old 11-17-2013, 04:26 PM
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From my understanding,it's not the hard & soft part upgrades that prevent the inter change.It's all controller/electrical issues.The 93/94 will interchange.The 95 is a standalone year.Besides the PWM issue,there differences in the solenoid signals & how they work as well.GM states that the OBD1 controller lacks the sophistication & ability to control the newer 4L60/4L65/4L70.I'm sure some one has figured a way to make it work,but,is it worth the time,trouble,& expense?Using a stand alone controller is also not a plug n play w/o altering the ECM.When the tranny is unplugged from the vehicle ECM for the swap,it will throw the vehicle into limp mode if the tranny is not tuned out.The stand alone controllers do not interact or communicate with the vehicle ECM/PCM or it's instrumentation @ all.They only provide a speed output to the user.They strictly control the transmission.Ythe same controller # is used ea trans'but'with different programming & harness for the actual trans being used.The later models will bolt up,but,the electrical is the problem when trying to interchange between model yrs.

Last edited by jokerZ71; 11-17-2013 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 11-17-2013, 04:33 PM
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For instance'ck out the description & instructions for trans controller #19212657 @ Pace Performance.
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Old 11-18-2013, 07:45 AM
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Of course the aftermarket Trans controller will work. BTW I just saw one advertiszed for $600, for 60-=85e.


The only differnce between the the transmissions so far as electronics is the Torque Converter Control.
Early is on/off, mid is PWM, and newer is EC3(ECCC).

To run an newer trans you either install a Transgo Shiftkit that eliminates the PWM or ECCC(EC3)
or
stake the PWM so that it doesnt pulse
or
install a strong spring that overcomes the TCC PWM/EC3 and makes it on/off.

The shift solenoids are the same. Unplugged will net you 3rd in the 4l60e and 2nd in the 4l80e, from there its just a combination of on and off shift solenoids.

That description says to not use the Supermatic shift control in a stock application.

peace
Hog
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