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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 01-22-2012, 07:46 PM
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Lingenfelter is using a flat-plane crank in their 5th gen Camaro shop car. They have that car flying! FWIW you can get a camshaft for an sbc ground with many different firing orders. I run the 4/7 swap in my car. The chevy engineers have stated that the LS firing order produces the least amount of bearing load on the crank ie: the bearing loads on the 5 caps were very close. But that is way off topic here.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2012, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joelster
The firing order has a lot to do with sound. Crafty guys can manipulate the sound by running specific headers. There's a science to it, and Ferrari's pay close attention to it. Here's a regular old LT1 car with standard firing order 18436572 but with 180 headers.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSZTbR6C6Lw

Sounds like it's about 2000rpm higher at every rev.

That is not an LT1.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2012, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joelster
Lingenfelter is using a flat-plane crank in their 5th gen Camaro shop car. They have that car flying! FWIW you can get a camshaft for an sbc ground with many different firing orders. I run the 4/7 swap in my car. The chevy engineers have stated that the LS firing order produces the least amount of bearing load on the crank ie: the bearing loads on the 5 caps were very close. But that is way off topic here.
Actaully not, bearing loads and balance both of moving masses and the forces of power application or absorption depending on which stroke a cylinder is on all have an impact on bearing load. This would include firing order. The nice thing about EFI is now it's possible to disconnect the firing order from the intake manifold configuration of 180 degrees, as with EFI 180 degree manifolds are or at least can be meaningless toward the optimization of most of the power band excepting the area around max out put RPMs. Certainly the manipulation of the firing order can also be done with an open plenum style manifold, but strangely for decades wasn't really taken advantage of.

With the Gen I and II SBC's with the typical factory firing order, the center two throws see a lot of couple. If we could freeze frame the shaft and measure the forces you'd see the shaft trying to use the middle bearing as a fulcrum to teeter about while the number 2 and number 4 are each absorbing a moment of rotation about the fulcrum (think of a teeter totter in our frozen motion example) so 2 and 4 see a lot more load than 1,5, or even 3. Changing the firing order can be used to manipulate the forces on the crank at any given point which won't eliminate this problem but certainly can reduce it to where each journal is loaded more equally.

Bogie
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2012, 02:43 AM
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You keep nailing these on the head boggie. actually crower is willing to make these cranks. i have yet to call them up.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2012, 04:33 AM
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I have an old school 350 in a 240 z datsun. One of my iterations, the car had single exhaust, 11:1 cr, a compcam 292H, with a 5 spd. It would rev all the way to valve float (7200 rpm). It did not sound like an american V8. But once I added dual exhaust, it sounded like an american v8. I do miss the single exhaust at 7000 rpm sound, but the duals make more power.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2012, 07:24 AM
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I like this engine
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:38 AM
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During the early 1970's at the NHRA Summernationals at Englishtown New Jersey, there was one funny car that sounderd very different from all of the other famous funny cars that were running there. I can't remember if it was the late Larry Fullerton's Trojan Horse or the late Phil Castronovo's Custom Auto Body funny cars. I asked around in the pits and rumors were it was a flat crank in the engine. I never saw any more references or information on it. Maybe someone has more info. All I can say , boy what a sound from a funny car.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:09 AM
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You can just buy a 180 degree crank for a chevy.

305 Engine Build Questions & Much More - Car Craft Magazine

A lot of tractor pull guys run big engines with 180 cranks. also some of the pro dragsters have tried them as well. But they dont work as well. as the gm crank design.

Its all still in the muffler. Once you got the music it will sound right at speed. Now you got to make your chevy v8 turn 8K rpm. You will also need four valve heads they sound very different. But can also be purchased.

You may want to check out what John Force racing is using there new race engine has a very unquie sound.

Ferrari wishes they had a v8 as compact and light as the sbc. Chevy has many of the best designs going for heads and crank positions. Since they all have major pattens applied you will never see any other maker use the chevy design. Mostly cause chevy knows they got the patten in early and have the best on paper and real word designs. a typical ferrari engine will weight 900 to 1200 lbs turn 8K rpm and only make 240 to 340 hp. Newer engines make more power per cube but do it with better flow and lots of design money. Most chevy alum block motors will shame a ferrari v8 in power to weight and power to reliablity/rpm. Flat plane cranks have some major faults.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2012, 10:17 AM
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my friend, the ferrari 458 engine makes 562 hp @ 9.000rpm and it's only 270 cubic inches, normally aspirated, built entirely in aluminum and carbon fiber.

with that efficiency a chevy 6.2 litre should make 774 hp NORMALLY ASPIRATED
but it only makes 630 SUPERCHARGED. just do a simple power to cid ratio math.

I really don't know were did you find that: "Most chevy alum block motors will shame a ferrari v8 in power to weight and power to reliablity/rpm"
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:25 AM
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The 5.8 liter nascar engines make 875 hp,whats your point?
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augusto View Post
my friend, the ferrari 458 engine makes 562 hp @ 9.000rpm and it's only 270 cubic inches, normally aspirated, built entirely in aluminum and carbon fiber.

with that efficiency a chevy 6.2 litre should make 774 hp NORMALLY ASPIRATED
but it only makes 630 SUPERCHARGED. just do a simple power to cid ratio math.

I really don't know were did you find that: "Most chevy alum block motors will shame a ferrari v8 in power to weight and power to reliablity/rpm"

yeah the supercharged engine get 28 mpg. so uh ferrari is out on that one. And a 263 sbc turning 9K rpm should be in the 500 hp range if built right. That was what 1950's and cost what under $500 for the car. the 458 engine is 50 grand easy. and is completely hand built wont last and is still probably heavier than the chevy engine. Yeah aluminum and carbon fiber thats great but quad cam engines are crazy heavy and have much higher chances of failure just in moving parts alone. Also since the heads are cast with much larger top for the cams and equipment the engine is also taller. and has more fitment issues.

fun facts but totally unlrelated to the post. But yes ferrari does use the flat plain crank cause they were the last to the table and got to run the left overs. But the ferrari with v12 - v6 all have the same ferrari sound and they are not all flat plain cranks.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2012, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
Freaking AWESOME.

I'd gladly buy that guy a beer.

Like to hear him do a Top Fuel car.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2012, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
The 5.8 liter nascar engines make 875 hp,whats your point?
the Ferrari engine is only 4.5 liter and is not a race engine, it's a street car's engine, the Ferrari race engine is only 2.4 liter and makes around 900 hp.

with that efficiency a Nascar 5.8 liter should make 2.175 hp

The Ferrari technology is way superior to chevy's, of course it comes at a price way superior than chevy's

My point is this guy said that a chevy engine is better.. no way, it is not, and I'm a chevy man.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2012, 02:34 PM
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y And a 263 sbc turning 9K rpm should be in the 500 hp range if built right. That was what 1950's and cost what under $500 for the car. .
What..??? you're kidding right..??
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2012, 02:41 PM
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leaving the american vs import debate which is not the case, seems like the flat crank is the way to make an american engine sound so sweet, but it's way ahead of a working's man budget, I'm building a V8 powered buggy and have plenty of room to make headers with pipes crossing to the other side and arranging the cylinders in the correct sequence, I'm gonna build them that way and I hope my engine sounds a little bit italian, it would be awsome, old american grunt with the sound of a symphony. (well my engine won't rev past 7.000 rpm, so it won't scream that high)
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