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Old 12-17-2006, 09:37 AM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Value line VS Top of the line paints.

Ok, this is the thread to start this debate.

Brian

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Old 12-17-2006, 10:36 AM
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I think that the lower line base coats in particular have their place for guys wanting a complete paint job on a budget. In cases where coverage is poor, it just becomes more important to use a sealer, or at least be sure that your primed substrate is all one uniform color. As baddbob mentioned, repairability can be compromised when there is lack of adequate coverage, but I think this is not too difficult to overcome with some toning and blending of the base should a repair ever be necessary.

Also, as some have pointed out, it's not a given that more expensive paint will cover well. Metallic paints in particular derive their appearance from being translucent or semi-transparent. Without this property, light would not be able to pass through the pigment and reflect off the metal flakes to produce the desired sparkle. Transparent colors can be very attractive out in the light because of the depth that light can pass through them before it is reflected back out.
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Old 12-17-2006, 11:00 AM
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I think the same applies here as does every where else in this world, you get what you pay for. I have sprayed many PPG paints (DBC,DCC) without any problems, excellent coverage. Then you take their bargain line (OMNI) and it just does not lay down the same, goes on like spraying water. Any one else out there have similar experiences..............
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Old 12-17-2006, 12:08 PM
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All should be aware, though, that a good portion of what you are paying for in a premium line paint is the R&D that goes into making sure that the formulas are matched as precisely as possible to the vehicles coming off the line, which doesn't matter as much to a guy looking to spray a complete on an older rig.

For instance, some of my S-W colors have 8 variants, all very close, that can be mixed depending on when the vehicle was made or even by VIN numbers. That just doesn't matter to most rodders.
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Old 12-17-2006, 04:53 PM
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I use both pretty evenly when I do paint. Years ago I wouldn't think about using anything but ppg dbc, or comparable level from a big paint manufacturer. With how much paint and supplies went up, and find myself using cheaper priced products more often. Clears and primers ect you can find a lot of places manufacturing, and I feel some are just as good or better then stuff from ppg, dupont at a better price. Depends on what is being done, what someone is willing to pay for and expects. If it is something like painting an entire piece, no blending and need a match, I wouldn't think too much about a value line color, I know many don't have the amount of tints to mix from to get a good match. Value products can be made to look good and last for quite awhile, if time enough time is taken allowing enough flash time, ect. Years ago, centari and velvaseal were considered pretty good products. Today they would be considered cheap and a lower paint job. I am not sure, but think some of these value lines may be an old systems that got replaced by a newer product. So I don't know the answer to your question. Is thier going to be a warrenty on anything? What is this going on, a pretty nice daily driver that someone doesn't want to sit and think about how much was spent on the paint job everytime he gets in it to go someplace, or is this a valueable car (at least in the owners eye) that 100's or much more hours were spent, all new from engine,suspension, interior, ect and it may actually leave the garage once in awhile to load it on a trailer or take it to a show. Of course many levels in between. I think both have thier time and place is my best answer.
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Old 12-17-2006, 06:09 PM
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First... I don't go around testing brands of paint, as it is too much work prepping. I normally use Dupont Chromabase, or SW Ultra if SPI doesn't carry a color that I need. A few years ago I needed to paint the front end of a red Nissan PU truck for my son. Since I didn't want to spend much money on the vehicle, I decided to try Nason. I didn't have the color code for the vehicle, since it had been repainted previously. I took a fender with me to the jobber to have it matched. The clerk told me that they could not use the camera match to get the Nason formula, but could get the Chromabase color that way. She said that she mixed the Nason to match the Chromabase color code. The color was close enough that it was absolutely no problem blending for color match, with 3 coats sprayed.

I have worked in shops that used Dupont, SW and Glasurit. I have seen the painters have problems from time to time with color matches and coverage in all brands. Maybe the "premium brand" might cover better in some colors, but I think there are colors that will be hard to get coverage with in most any brand.

Aaron
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Old 12-17-2006, 11:39 PM
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I think the first thing that has to be address is something some of you touched on, what the heck is a "value line" anyway?

It wasn't that long ago, there were the big boys, PERIOD. There were no (at least not well distributed, I hadn't heard of any) clears, primers and God forbid especially paint available from anyone other than DuPont, PPG (Ditzler) S-W. Then a few came from overseas like Glasurit and the like. But that was it. It wasn't that long ago, that was it. The "aftermarket" (I assume we called them that because the big boys WERE the OEM on all domestic cars) clears and some primers popped up. Were these "value lines" because they were cheaper after all? Then with more and more compitition coming from these "aftermarket" makers like TranStar, Marson, PCL, etc. the big boys started coming out with the value lines. Some of these value line products were simply relabeled top of the line! Others were buy outs from the "aftermarket" companies and relabeled.

Fast forward to now and the line has gotten awful fuzzy between the two!

The biggest difference is the warrantee, the funny thing is, it doesn't have a hole lot to do with the products performance. Sure it does, they aren't going to lifetime warrantee lacquer primer. But a LOT of the warrantee is really simply an "insurance policy" that you pay for in the higher GP top end products.

That being said, I will say it as I always do. You are better off with a high end product just by the odds. It will likely be more user friendly and certainly as mentioned the color will be closer. Coverage, I have seen so much both ways I just don't know. I mean, I used to sell a value line that was built off the top of the line system. It used 17 toners from a 38 toner top of the line SS urethane enamel system. This reduced the color pallette to about 3500 colors from 12,000. It also took the real "clean" toners out that would be needed to make a color like Cokeacola red. However, this value line performed EXACTLY as the top of the line. We are talking one coat coverage in some colors.

And likewise, I remember an account I tried to get where he shot UPS trucks in NASON, two coats, done deal. That "top of the line" value line I had couldn't do it with that particular color.

All in all, the value lines have a lot to offer. But more importantly, there is no difference at all. It has really blown the old saying "You get what you pay for" on it's ear.

Brian

Last edited by MARTINSR; 12-18-2006 at 12:11 AM.
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Old 12-18-2006, 08:38 AM
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I use DuPont Chromabase, they have one higher grade (chromapremier)
that I never use.
I understand the higher priced base covers better but I don't care.
All I do is small collision repair and even buying the smallest container of paint I usually have more than I need, so a couple more coats doesn't matter.
Sometimes I think blending may be better with the lesser coverage one,
(I don't really know that for sure.)
I realize that additional coats of base to attain hiding can be a "die-back"
issue so I always allow more time before clearing.
Most colors have covered quite good for me in the lower line.
DuPont also has the Nasson line that would be great for me if it could
match OEM colors, but they're not as good for that so I stay with
the DuPont line.
Plus the DuPont line can pick the alternate by the vehicles
VIN number.
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Old 12-18-2006, 09:10 AM
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Mr4speed-
Just did my Monte last week with Omni. Run city! Water is thicker than that paint! Light tack coat, then a second coat to barely cover- runs and sags all over. Didn't run until you were 1/2 way around the car, then it was curtains!
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Old 12-18-2006, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beenaway2long
Mr4speed-
Just did my Monte last week with Omni. Run city! Water is thicker than that paint! Light tack coat, then a second coat to barely cover- runs and sags all over. Didn't run until you were 1/2 way around the car, then it was curtains!
The thing I have to honestly ask MYSELF when something like that happens is "how do the thousands of other painters who spray it do it?". It may be tempermental, it may require a baby touch, BUT, it is used every day without that result.

I am not sticking up for it, I am just saying it "can" work because it does all over the country.

Brian
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Old 12-18-2006, 04:46 PM
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Boy its been many years since I used omni clear, but I seem to remember kinda the same thing. The shop (sold used cars) switched from cheap limco clear to cheap omni clear. I remember liking the omni clear better then limcos, but it did seem thin and prone to run, but didn't have the solvent pop problems and seemed to look better then limco. I've seen others post it was like syrup, which seemed strange from what I remembered, unless they somehow changed it. Think it was actually here that it was posted a few years ago, and I remarked it seemed thin to me. This was in the early 90's I used to spray it. Through experimenting and trying different products, there are other clears and base at a reasonable prices I like better, so doubt I'll be using omni again soon. If you had problems with it, try using it more or find another product. I did get omni back then to spray pretty nice, but did get some runs when I first used it. Seemed to be a fine line from nice wet coat to runs all over the place. But also remember some decent looking jobs from it, but like I said, was a long time ago.
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Old 12-18-2006, 05:21 PM
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Remember spraying a dash panel out of a 32 ford, it was cream color in MTK single stage omni. First off the only part that got any coverage was all the inside curves where the pigment seemed to settle. I must have put down 8 coats and could still see thru the color on the flat spots of the dash. Went back and bought the same color in concept dcc and what do you know full coverage in one coat. The only product I liked in omni was there poly spray filler MK241 and they discontinued that one, figures...........
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Old 12-18-2006, 10:05 PM
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Value lines.... I've put Omni to the test on three cars that went through Barrett Jackson, a late 60's Jag XKE, a 32 Chev Roadster, and a 40's Buick Convertible that set a new record. All three were part of an old collection that the owner needed to liquidate. The Buick set a new record and the other two brought very respectible dollars. How long the jobs lasted are another story. I did a budget repaint for a friend on a 69 Camaro that took home many 1st place trophies but the bright viper red darkened and the clear deteriorated over the 4 years he owned it. I've used it on Dump Trucks, Motorhomes, Trailers, Snowmobiles... and yeah you can make stuff look nice with it but I'm not impressed with durability. Some colors cover well but the majority don't. The clears are easy to work with but if compared to Global D894 for depth, clarity, and durability there's really no comparison. Color matching sucks usually. I've also played around with Lesinol, and Nason. Lesinol has some good color match capability and it sprays nice, clears are OK but there's really no savings at all with the 2-1 mix ratio for the base and poor coverage on many colors. Nason has poor colormatch, covers better than Omni from what I've seen and the clears are comparible IMO. Nason singlestage urethane is user friendly but not much for durability. I haven't tried Valspar, U-tech paints, Dimension, Matrix, Kirker, and Prospray. I guess product performance to me is comparing the product to PPG's Global and Dupont's Chroma Premier. I have no experience with Glasurit, Spies, BASF, & Sikkens premium line.
SPI's products fall somewhere in the middle dollarwise but the performance I've seen ranks with the top and they are my choice for primers and clears with Global for color.
Do the value line paints have their place? Yeah, but if I'm putting 500+ hours into a project that will be kept for a lifetime I'll definately pass on Omni and Nason IMO.
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Old 12-19-2006, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
The thing I have to honestly ask MYSELF when something like that happens is "how do the thousands of other painters who spray it do it?". It may be tempermental, it may require a baby touch, BUT, it is used every day without that result.

I am not sticking up for it, I am just saying it "can" work because it does all over the country.

Brian

Brian,
You are absolutely right. Same thing I told my jobber. It was my first time with that stuff. I think in retrospect, I should have tried 3-4 light coats instead of 2. The P sheet said 1-2 or cover. White over light gray sealer.

Now, if I were using DBC, I know 2 coats would have done it. Sooooooo , is it really cheaper in the long run? In this case no. I had to nib off the runs, and reshoot it. The labor exceeds the cost difference, in my opinion. Now add in the hassle factor.... But its all part of the "tutition of life"
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Old 12-19-2006, 05:45 PM
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My $.02

"Value-line" products have there place. But, it is a fact that some of those companies don't have the higher standard components used to make their products as the "big boys". You know as well as I, Senior, that back in the early 90's the European lines were woopin the local boys butts, in clear performance. This was due to factory emission laws. The European factories could use chemicals and procedures that American manufacturers could not. That's when S&W started selling Herbert Standox, they couldn't compete. Spiez Hecker/ Herbert Standox (the same company) shipped products under both labels to bring in twice the chemicals. Sorry DuPont guys, but then Dupont gave in and bought out Spiez/Standox, because (IMO) they couldn't compete either! With that said I'm actually a fan of Sikkens. They had issues in the late 90's, but, those are long gone, and (IMO) it is hard to find a finish as durable as there HS+ clear.

As for color, (IMO) color is color. Yes some manufacturers spend a little more time on formulas than others, so, their formulas match better. But, realize this has nothing to do with the actual pigment. As stated, some colors are not available in cheap lines, because those colors aren't cheap.

As for running or popping, 99% of the time those are application errors!

Botom-line: When I spend the time it takes on a restoration job, I'm using a high-line product (taking no chances). But, if my buddy wants a cheap paint job, hey, that's what he gets.

That's my opinion!
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