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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 07-08-2012, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S10 Racer View Post
If it was mine, I would replace all the lifters. That way you know what you have to work with.
S10: if he has the V-max cam kit, its designed for these particular lifters!!! he may have to change the cam too! I don,t know if it would be detrimental to the materials the lifters or cam are made of Maybe Firebird or Cobalt or others have more knowledge of this then me Ive only put in 1 v-Max kit and a few of the V-max lifters sets on other cams!!! My knowledge is very limited on the V-Max products !!! and if those are the hydro-solid lifters I have no knowledge!!!

Jester

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Last edited by painted jester; 07-08-2012 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 07-08-2012, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by painted jester View Post
S10: if he has the V-max cam kit, its designed for these particular lifters!!! he may have to change the cam too! I don,t know if it would be detrimental to the materials the lifters or cam are made of Maybe Firebird or Cobalt or others have more knowledge of this then me Ive only put in 1 v-Max kit and a few of the V-max lifters sets on other cams!!! My knowledge is very limited on the V-Max products !!! and if those are the hydro-solid lifters I have no knowledge!!!

Jester
I don't know so, I will get out of this conversation. I was only suggesting that he change the lifters to something he knows. I hate working with unknown parts. Yes, if he changes the lifters, he may have to change the cam, I would. He can't get it to run right with what he has so if it was me, I would change it but thats just my opinion. He may already have mismatched parts and don't know it and may never get it to run right. This is all I have to say. Good Luck
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Old 07-08-2012, 07:15 PM
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If your sure its a comp cam! s10's right the easy way is to install some comp lifters and be done with it!!!! If you could get a picture of the top of that lifter I could tell if it was a V max ! Ill look and see if I can find a picture of one to post!!

Jester

Heres a pic of the v max lock ring

http://www.highperformancepontiac.co.../photo_06.html

Last edited by painted jester; 07-08-2012 at 07:21 PM.
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Old 07-08-2012, 11:42 PM
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The only thing a Rhodes lifter is good for is when an idiot decides to use a bottom of the page cam cuz it's cool and then he can't get it to run right. When you see a Rhodes ad that says "Rhodes Lifters Suck" they are telling the truth. They DO increase the vacuum, ...at the cost of major horsepower.

If you set those valves up like hydraulics should be and the valves hit the pistons, you NOW KNOW WHY THE IDIOT TOLD YOU TO LASH THEM. He's one of those "bottom of the page' guys that bought a cam that has too much lift and he didn't check clearances before assembly. I would pull the cam out, I.D. it and replace the cam and lifter kit with someting that is compatible with your setup.
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Old 07-09-2012, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg T View Post

If you set those valves up like hydraulics should be and the valves hit the pistons, you NOW KNOW WHY THE IDIOT TOLD YOU TO LASH THEM. He's one of those "bottom of the page' guys that bought a cam that has too much lift and he didn't check clearances before assembly. I would pull the cam out, I.D. it and replace the cam and lifter kit with someting that is compatible with your setup.
You should read the whole thread ? Im not sure hes running the V-Max lifters I'm guessing he is, But if he is ? (the original builder didn't try and cover a mistake of valve clearance with an open lash) Its probably built right!and blue printed to the builders specs! If you try to adjust the V-Max lifters like the original Rhoads or a regular hyd lifter !!! I can guarantee you'll have damage!

Many people buy built engines ask a few questions but don't get the blueprint on internals! take it home change a few thing and set it in their car and are in a can of worms!!! They try to tune the engine but it wont tune to the car its in now! then try this and try that and it compounds into a guessing game Sometimes you can contact the builder and get the information you need to trouble shoot intelligently but sometimes you cant Hes some where in the wind

I hate to say it but don't blame the builder, The man who bought the engine just didn't get enough information before he took delivery and doesn't want to tear it down ! which is understandable so he came on this site so all us experts can help him trouble shoot (guess) LOL!! It would be much easier if we were there! But we're not and we have to rely on him giving us information we need that he doesn't know unless he tears the engine down! Like cam specs, cam company,type of lifters There are many), head gaskets, type of pistons, has it been decked, piston to valve clearance, deck height,valve spring pressure,rocker ratios, Have the pistons been fly cut,Etc,Etc. He would know all this if he got a blueprint of the build or sat with the builder for a while and picked his brain and wrote it all down!Or maybe the guy he got it from isn't the builder and only knows the lash he was told! and can only relay what he knows!!

Jester

Last edited by painted jester; 07-09-2012 at 04:28 PM.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 07-09-2012, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by painted jester View Post
You should read the whole thread ? Im not sure hes running the V-Max lifters I'm guessing he is, But if he is ? (the original builder didn't try and cover a mistake of valve clearance with an open lash) Its probably built right!and blue printed to the builders specs! If you try to adjust the V-Max lifters like the original Rhoads or a regular hyd lifter !!! I can guarantee you'll have damage!

Many people buy built engines ask a few questions but don't get the blueprint on internals! take it home change a few thing and set it in their car and are in a can of worms!!! They try to tune the engine but it wont tune to the car its in now! then try this and try that and it compounds into a guessing game Sometimes you can contact the builder and get the information you need to trouble shoot intelligently but sometimes you cant
Hes some where in the wind

I hate to say it but don't blame the builder, The man who bought the engine just didn't get enough information before he took delivery and doesn't want to tear it down ! which is understandable so he came on this site so all us experts can help him trouble shoot (guess) LOL!! It would be much easier if we were there! But we're not and we have to rely on him giving us information we need that he doesn't know unless he tears the engine down! Like cam specs, cam company,type of lifters There are many), head gaskets, type of pistons, has it been decked, piston to valve clearance, deck height,valve spring pressure,rocker ratios, Have the pistons been fly cut,Etc,Etc. He would know all this if he got a blueprint of the build or sat with the builder for a while and picked his brain and wrote it all down!Or maybe the guy he got it from isn't the builder and only knows the lash he was told! and can only relay what he knows!!

Jester

Thats all well and good, but if he gave the lifters a little preload and the piston kissed a valve then the builder didn't do his homework. V/P clearance is much too tight for a good reliable street machine.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2012, 04:55 PM
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Greg is 100% correct. You have an issue that cannot be solved with valve adjustment alone. I will paste at the bottom of the post recommendations about piston to valve clearance. Minimun .80 of an inch. You have less than .024. Changing lifters will not change this, it is a product of cam lift. Obviously the cam and piston CANNOT occupy the same space at the same tim. Push rod length affects valve train geomentry not gross lift. Cam position could be the problem. Maybe not degreed correctly? Maybe one tooth off on the timing chain marks? Find a friend or shop with a GOOD machine tech who knows how to check and assemble engine compoments correctly. Blueprinted is a cool term that gets thrown around but basiccaly means checking eveything for proper fit, finish, and compatibility. To say that the original bulder is not at fault is just plain wrong. This is basic performance engine building technique. To offer advice on Rhodes lifters when addressing the original post leads me to believe Painted Jester may not fully understand engine building or diagnostic techniques.


Checking Piston To Valve Clearance




RHS® strongly urges you to check the piston to valve clearance on the larger street cams and all race cams. The easiest and most accurate way to check this is to place strips of modeling clay on top of one piston, and then rotate the engine over by hand with the cylinder head bolted in place and all of the valve train components adjusted. If there is any resistance during rotation of the crankshaft, STOP! The piston has probably hit the valve. Then you must decide whether to fly cut the piston, or exchange the cam for a profile that will fit into your engine. Note: Minimum piston to valve clearance is .080” on the intake and .100” on the exhaust valves. If aluminum connecting rods are being used, add a minimum of .030” to these suggested clearance figures. Aluminum rods will stretch and expand more than steel rods.

Note: Be sure to check piston to valve clearance after the cam has been degreed. The positioning of the cam in the engine will greatly affect the piston to valve clearance.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2012, 05:46 PM
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Comp Cams recomends that when installing the Comp 305H Magnum cam that you check valve to piston clearance and retiner to seal clearance, rocker to stud clearance etc. They also recomend you degree in this cam to ensure correct valve timing.
I believe this cam is dround "straight up" meaning there is not pre dialed in cam advance like many other performance cams.
You want to degree it and move it to your desired intake C/L based on the .050" timing evets.

Usually on a flat top 4 valve relief piston 350 with big cams like the 305H magnum it is the exhaust valve that is the issue.
So advancing the cam will help. You can do a home brewed hand piston notch deepening job your self but you must strip the heads off the motor.
A little carfull masking of the motors decks and some vasoline around the piston edge in the cylinder keeps the shavings out.
Lots of people do it like this on these SBC's that just need the piston valve relief made a bit deeper or a bit bigger radius.

assuming your valves are not already bent from contacting the pistons, this is your simple cure.
This cam works very well when advanced a bit 102 to 106 intake C/L
This in it self move the exhaust valve away from the piston.
(The intake valve gets closer to the piston)

Do not guess. Degree the cam before moving it and verify VTP clearance and valve spring clearance etc once your piston valve relief mods are done.

Again usually its the exhaust valve relief that needs a bit of attention.
this .525" lift cam will not work with stock OEM SBC valve springs or stock OEM SBC rockers.
this cam like lots of compression ratio lots of rpm
needs stiff gears 4.30++++ and a very high stall converter 3500 stall minimum. a 5000 stall is not too much.
Do not use Rhoads lifters with this cam. Use comp hyd lifters or Isky Super Lifters or Normal GM hyd lifters and good valve springs like Isky 235D
use good long slot rockers or roller rockers. good pushrods are nice too. This cam likes to rev.
if the valves were kissing the pistons the valve may be bent and the cam and lifters may be damaged too.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 07-10-2012 at 05:57 PM.
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Old 07-11-2012, 10:44 AM
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If "wma" doesn't give us more information , were all guessing he doesnt even know if he really came in contact with the pistons or not when he took out the lash and gave it 3/4 turn (If thats what he did) he may have adjusted the valve spring keeper and lock into contact with the valve seal and guide boss or the spring clearance bound and stopped him from turning the engine over! firebird and others are right valve clearance should be checked !!!! and coil bind and valve guide boss to keeper!


If hes running the V-max , hydra solid lifters We dont know? (he hasn"t come back yet) They compound the solution !!! I dont run em I don't like em I only installed em on customers orders! and if it was me (again if he has them???) I would put in lifters recommended for the cam!!!

Jester
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Old 07-11-2012, 11:25 AM
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Hey guys

i did try to adjust like hyd by going to 0 valve lash and then turning 1/2 turn. when i tried to turn the crank to go to the next cylinder #8 the #1 piston hit the valve and stopped. i did not force it i just loosened the valve and the motor turned over. I then went thru and adjusted all intakes to 0.26 and the exhaust to 0.28. the valve was hitting the piston not anything else. I started the engine and it sounded real good. set timing to 36 full advance and tried to do a burn out in the driveway. when you put the motor under a load it starts missing like crazy. i am going to change mech advance to come in quicker and see if that helps. If not then i am going to pull the motor and do a complete rebuild myself. that way i will know what everything is and not be going by what someone says it is. Not talking about you guys i am talking about the guy i got it from and the guy that built it. right now i am going on what he said cam is and i am beginning to believe that he dosen't know what it is. anyway when i try the advance i will let you know what it did. i appreciate al the help.
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Old 07-11-2012, 11:29 AM
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Oh yea i was going to tell ya the valves have not made contact with engine running. I am running a 3500 stall but it has 3.73 gears which are going to be changed as soon as i get the money.
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Old 07-11-2012, 08:18 PM
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Thanks for all the help i replied to your last message and if your interested it is attached to the other part that we were talking about. still having trouble with this motor it has really got me baffled.
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Old 07-12-2012, 04:38 PM
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Nothing baffling about this to me.

Lack of clearance in the valvetrsin or PTV clearance. or both

Adding .024" of lash to reduce the lift at the valve will not fix this motor from destroying itself.

runing this much valve lash on a hyd cam (hyd cams do not have a lash ramp like a solid cam does) will kill the cam and lfiters in short order.

.024 to ..028" VTP and or valvetrain ( coil bind etc) clearance is not enough.
it will start bending/snapping ( more ) stuff as soon as you rev it up.

Not suprised tha the engine breaks up at 3500+ rpm as the valve train is bouncing and floating when ever the valve closes.
wrong valve springs, excessive valvetrain lash
Hyd cams are not designed to run with lash in the valve train. No landing ramp, very harsh valve seating.
You are pounding the valvetrain.

The comp 305H cam is not a "bolt in" cam.

At least one of the valves is probabily already bent.
Probabily a few bent pushrods too. Cam lobes/lifter feet may already be worn.

you can take it apart now and fix it (at low cost and time investment) or later, at much higher cost when it comes unglued.

Do a simple compression test and a simple compressed air /cylinder in ex valve leak test to detect bent valves.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 07-12-2012 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 07-12-2012, 06:13 PM
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I think you are right F-BIRD"88

I think you are right and the guy who supposedly built the motor don't know his butt from a hole in the ground. I put it all back together and reworked the dist. It has a billet MSD so i cked the advance curve and it was set to full advance at 5800Rpm and only 11 degrees on the dist. I changed it so that it would have full advance at 3400 and 21 degrees on the dist. This allowed me to set idle at 12 to give 34 total. This made the engine smooth out a lot. It reves quicker and does not flutter/ I haven't been able to ck in under load yet because it has been raining here for the last couple days. You are right about the cam and valves not supposed to have any lash and that is why i think i am just going to pull the motor and go all the way thru it. I am not sure that the cam is what he says it is and i am going to replace it with a comp cam 507 lift. The heads are Holley aluminum #12111 and it has Isky springs with 1.5 roller tip rockers. one of the other things that concerned me was the push rod i had to replace is long. 8.5 and as you know stock is 7.794. the rocker tip hits on the middle of the valve but it pushes the spring down to where it is almost totally collapsed. I have alot of goos stuff in this motor but i think you are right about spend some money and time now or a whole lot later. The only problem i have now is that i am a disabled Vietnam Vet and i don't have much money. But thats ok to it will take me awhile to save up the bucks to do it right but one way or another it will get done and then maybe by next season i will finally get to run this thing down the track. thanks to all of you that has contributed your knowledge and time. I have learned a few things and appreciate the input.
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Old 07-12-2012, 06:42 PM
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Running .024-.028" valve lash on a hyd cam will result in a very noisey valvetrain at idle.. If the valvetrain is not noisey at idle, it may not be a hyd cam at all.
It may be a solid cam.
One thing is for sure .024-.028" clearance in the valvetrain or PTV is NOT ENOUGH.

Having no money won;t stop you from verifying what you actually got in this motor. HYD cam + hyd lifters , hyd on a solid solid on hyd, six hyd lifters and a few solids or .....and the real VTP clearance and spring bind, rocker stud bind etc clearance.

this motor can probabily be corrected now for very little cash.
i would not run this motor as is, untill you trace down the clearance issue.
that pushrod broke for a reason. Its probabily your last low cost warning you are going to get.

Measure the VTP clearance and ID the camshaft grind and lifter type.
and verify the cam install phasing.

There is probabily a much better cam for this motor anyways.
Again a hyd cam ran with .024-.028 valve lash is going to be pretty noisy at idle. Its very harsh on the valvetrain. It won;t last long running it like that. $$$$$$
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