valve spring help - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 06-10-2011, 03:14 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 18
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
valve spring help

I need help choosing valve springs for my engine. It is a stock bottom end 350 (flat pistons) with vortec heads. I have this roller cam from trick flow going in it
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TFS-31402000/ i believe the cam pushes the limits of the stock vortec and am i need of need springs, any help in spring selection would be appreciated, thank you

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 06-10-2011, 06:07 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 19
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Springs

In this case I always recommend a matching set Cam, Lifter, Spring, combination.This is purely cost effective for break in period and cam life. There are so many choices out there but they now have kits to eliminate your need to guess what is best and have our choice be the wrong one time or the set does not exactly measure up to what is recommended. There you have it tear down time new cam all the other crap associated with it as well. My advice purchase a matching set and install it all at the same time do not get the springs then cam and so forth. You may spend a little more at first but it is well worth the effort involved trust me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 06-10-2011, 07:16 AM
SSedan64's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Macon, GA.
Age: 50
Posts: 6,016
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 46 Times in 46 Posts
I agree^^^.
The Vortec springs aren't good for anything other than the stock Cam. There are other cheap Spring options that may work with that Cam but, you need to know the required Spring Specs for the Cam. Search through some of the other Vortec Head Threads.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 06-10-2011, 10:24 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: TX
Posts: 1,149
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 101 Times in 93 Posts
Stock fit springs

A set of good valve springs for that camshaft would be Eldelbrock 5814. They are "drop-in" valve springs, meaning, they will fit the heads without any machine work to the guides or spring seats and fit stock valve length, with stock retainers and locks.

Single springs (no damper)
.480" max. valve lift
.530" max. valve lift @ coil bind
104 -116 lb. seat pressure @ 1.700" assembled height
1.250" O.D.
0.750" I.D.

Last edited by MouseFink; 06-10-2011 at 10:33 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 06-10-2011, 01:20 PM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MouseFink
A set of good valve springs for that camshaft would be Eldelbrock 5814.
Thar p/n is for a set of 12. The OP has a 350.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 06-10-2011, 01:22 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 18
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
i already have the cam and lifters so i figure its more cost effective just to figure out the springs.

When i look up the Edelbrock 5814 it says they are for a v6 is that right?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 06-10-2011, 01:34 PM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by heavymetalhudson
i already have the cam and lifters so i figure its more cost effective just to figure out the springs.

When i look up the Edelbrock 5814 it says they are for a v6 is that right?
That p/n is for 12 springs and is correct if ordering springs for a six cylinder 2 valve per cylinder application. So, yeah. For a V6.

Have the heads been mocked up to see if they will allow the cam to be used, or are the heads already modified to allow for more lift than stock? That cam is about at the limit, lift-wise, so you need to check to be sure if they're stock head castings.

A common way to spring these heads is to use the "Z-28/LT-1" springs sold by most everyone and run them w/the damper removed.

HERE is a list of valve train points to check.

Info on Vortec heads and mods to them, etc. is HERE.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 06-10-2011, 03:35 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 18
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
starting to seem like i should go with less of a cam since im trying to avoid machine work, i was hoping there would be a set of beehives to just solve the problem.
the info on vortec heads is helping alot
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 06-10-2011, 03:44 PM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by heavymetalhudson
starting to seem like i should go with less of a cam since im trying to avoid machine work, i was hoping there would be a set of beehives to just solve the problem.
the info on vortec heads is helping alot
There are beehive spring/retainer packages that allow more lift w/o machining.

Unmodified Vortec heads may have enough clearance for the cam you want to run- but you need to measure things to be sure, is all. Sometimes just a seal change can give enough extra clearance.

These- http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VORTE...Q5fAccessories were asked about by a member here, never heard if he went w/them or not, though.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 06-10-2011, 06:09 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 18
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
thanks, those springs seem like what im looking for just will have to mock the engine up and check the clearances then
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 06-10-2011, 06:56 PM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by heavymetalhudson
thanks, those springs seem like what im looking for just will have to mock the engine up and check the clearances then
If you use some checking springs, or even just assemble the valves into the heads w/a seal that you are going to use fully installed onto the guide boss, w/o springs and just use the retainer and locks, you can measure what the available spring height is. Allow for some clearance between the seal and retainer at max lift for safety sake and the rest is how much lift you can safely run.

If you see there's enough room to run your cam, you can use the cheap Z-28 springs (p/n 98214) w/o the damper like sold by Competition Products, etc. for about $30/set.

Now, the Z-28 springs have 120 pounds on the seat @ 1.7" installed height and 300 pounds @ 1.250", coil bind at 1.160" and is good up to 0.510" lift. These specs are more in keeping w/what you need for your choice of a hydraulic roller cam, rather than the Edelbrock springs brought up earlier- springs that AFAIK are available in a set of 12 only, not 16 as would be needed for a V8 application.

Last edited by cobalt327; 06-10-2011 at 07:03 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 06-11-2011, 05:13 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 18
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
i was gonna go for the springs from http://www.alexsparts.com/products/V...AT-TAPPET.html but those z28 springs you suggest are alot cheaper and found em on summit i think i will go for those instead
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 06-11-2011, 08:13 PM
techinspector1's Avatar
Senior Curmudgeon
 
Last wiki edit: DynoSim combinations Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hemet, California, USA
Age: 72
Posts: 12,526
Wiki Edits: 326

Thanks: 684
Thanked 869 Times in 739 Posts
The problem is interference between the bottom of the retainer and the valve seal or top of the valve guide. I don't think just changing springs is gonna do anything to alleviate the clearance problem. You'll also have to change retainers or do a ghetto grind on your stock Vortec retainers. If I were doing this, I'd turn them upside down on the table of a surface grinder, throw on the magnet and cut 'em thinner.

Chevrolet says the stock arrangement is good for only 0.430" valve lift. This allows a safety margin so that the bottom of the retainer will not strike the top of the seal. If you want to run the cam you linked, at 0.465", then you need another 0.035" cut from the bottom of your stock retainers or you need to pony-up for a retainer that is built a little differently and will allow the clearance without machine work.

Personally though, if I were doing this on a grocery-getter type motor, I'd install the Z28 springs and call it good. You'll be moving into your safety margin a little, but with a low-rpm street motor, I wouldn't worry about it. Use a socket upside down on the seals and tap with a small hammer to insure they are seated all the way down on the valve guide. It's been a while, but I think I remember using a 1/2" socket.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2011, 12:27 AM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1
Chevrolet says the stock arrangement is good for only 0.430" valve lift.
Where do you see that, TI? I've done a little looking around on the subject, and I'm sure I've never seen that small of a figure used. I mean, the exhaust lift on the Vortec is 0.428" or some such. And w/a stock cam, there is a ton of room between the retainer and seal.

On the set of Vortec heads sitting in my shop as I type, there is room for a 0.470" lift. I'm not saying ALL Vortec heads are going to be the same, but I will say that there's no harm in measuring to see just what can and cannot be used.

In any event, it is my humble opinion that NO published figures are any replacement for actually, physically measuring. YMMV.

Last edited by cobalt327; 06-12-2011 at 12:54 AM. Reason: Typo.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2011, 02:40 PM
techinspector1's Avatar
Senior Curmudgeon
 
Last wiki edit: DynoSim combinations Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hemet, California, USA
Age: 72
Posts: 12,526
Wiki Edits: 326

Thanks: 684
Thanked 869 Times in 739 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
In any event, it is my humble opinion that NO published figures are any replacement for actually, physically measuring. YMMV.
This statement is golden.
Manufacturing tolerances can allow the finished product to be all over the place and it is incumbent upon all of us to check every single measurement on every single component.
For instance, it makes me very sad when you ask a poster what the piston deck height is on his build and he hasn't a clue what you're talking about.

The 0.430" number was pulled from memory after reading data several years ago from one of the GM dealers who specialize in modding the L31 heads. It could have been Gilbert Chevrolet or Sallee Chevrolet or Scoggin-Dickey. At any rate, here's an article from Sallee that shows a limit of 0.420" with 0.030" clearance. Look at the "Vortec cylinder head technical information".
http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/Cyli...ads/Vortec.cfm

Mark, you and I and most of the regulars on this board would not even think of assembling ANYTHING without knowing every measurement and how it was going to affect the entire package, but there are many enthusiasts out there who will jump in and do what they think is right and proper without having the expertise to move forward. Sometimes I think there should be an Engine Assembly Police who would be put on alert every time someone purchases a car part to question them about what they're doing and to determine they will improve the machine in some manner. Matter of fact, in Orwell's world, it might come to that.

I noted with interest your statement on valve train points in the Wiki concerning max lobe lift with the OEM roller cam arrangement. You other fellows should be aware of this also. On an aftermarket camshaft, if the lift is excessive, then normally the base circle of the camshaft will be reduced, sometimes to the point that the lifter can fall out the bottom of the dogbones and things will get ugly in a hurry.
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...oints_To_Check

Last edited by techinspector1; 06-12-2011 at 02:46 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
broken valve? valve spring is sitting off center from rocker tip. zoomo Engine 63 03-25-2011 08:37 PM
Cam and Valve Spring help?? 89SDime Engine 3 03-27-2006 10:46 AM
Valve spring ????? 66truck4spd Engine 1 08-25-2005 06:52 AM
Valve spring help Stinky Engine 4 07-01-2003 06:48 PM
valve spring yannick Engine 3 03-09-2003 08:33 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.