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  #136 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2013, 06:17 PM
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To lock out the 'E', if (I remember right) set the switches to the "Q" setting. Switch 1 at 1, switch 2 at 7. This would give you 20 degrees of retard below 500rpm for starting. Check timing at idle should be around 36 or 38 BTDC.

So at idle with a timing light on it it should be at about 36* btdc on the timing tape with vacuum advance disconnected.

Jester

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  #137 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2013, 06:55 PM
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very lazy 400

Descent parts choice, lets get to the basics. 1) what is the timing curve?, Total advance curve should be 22 to 28 degree's with the right weight's. That way it will start easy @ 8 to 10 Degree's initial timing that will give you 38 degree's total. Never lock out dist. unless you have computer control or a timing retard for start up. Vac advance for street Mech advance for strip some street total advance 36 to 38 degrees with premium pump gas or 110. With vac advance it will make it very peppy on the street at part throttle. All mech. advance should be in by 1500 RPM. Hope this help's
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  #138 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2013, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 View Post
This will not work on this motor with a auto trans. The result is a very unstable idle (as the light tension fast advance rate allows the timing to jump around at idle)
and not enough timing at idle. The motor has a crappy idle, tends to load up, and has poor throttle response.
The timing tends to jump around as rpm and manifold vacuum jump around.

The cam in this motor wants full timing right at idle 36deg BTDC.
Therefore the locked timing works best.
All you need is a ignition power interrupt switch to allow easy hot engine
restart. It is just that easy.

This is not a strip only setup. With this cam or others like it or larger
this is what works the best on the street. (auto transmission)

Then

If you have vacuum advance use the ported vacuum source for this setup.
Get a adjustable vac advance pot and limit it to 10-12deg max.
Adjust the rate and amount of added vacuum advance by drive testing at hiway cruise speeds. You do not want it all pegged in at idle. Use the ported vacuum source.
It is for part throttle light load cruising/driving.
This is what works the best on a street car with a cam this big and a auto transmission.

This is what the motor needs and this works 100% better than what you suggested, which is for a manual transmission car.

not that hard...
I got the timing locked out and I installed a pcv but now the car is dying as soon as I put it in gear and I think I will set the distributor up to give me around 10 degrees of vacuum advance
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  #139 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2013, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 View Post
check the cap and rotor and wires install. There is a outside change there is a problem with this
distributor..
Do a simple cylindr balance test to detect misfireing-weak cylinders, using a tach and or vacuum gauge.

You should have just locked out the HEI distributor you already had.

If you cannot trace the problem reinstall the old distributor and lock it out.

Further these e curve distributors do not advance the timing. They only work by more or less retard
from the base line setting.

Verify the actual timing at idle in gear and the timing at full advance and the accumulated total timing when vacuum advance is active. Using a timing light.

You want 36deg BTDC steady at idle in gear....36deg steady at idle in neutral.
36deg at high rpm WOT . No vacuum advance....

and +10deg of added vacuum advance when vacuum advance is active and high manifold vacuum is applied.

The start retard also accumulative. So must be accounted for in the base line distributor timing setup.

Remember this E curve distributor never actually "advances the timing" it all works by taking away timing from the base setup.

in various amount depending on the switches set up.

Use a timing light to verify each timing curve mode idle......idle in gear......... WOT max advance........and part throttle applyed vacuum advance.

The base line setup has to be readjusted depending on which amount of start retard you give it.

Like I said can be a bit pesky to get it set up right.

The idle timing must not drop when in gear or the motor will stall.

The carbs throttles pri and sec must be in the correct position (idle fuel transfer slot exposure) at idle.
Or the idle fuel curve is funky. A blown leaky power valve or a power valve that is opening at idle in gear
when manifold vacuum is lowest will mess up the idle too.
If the plugs are black fouled, replace.

These e curve distributors are more trouble than they are worth on a motor like yours with this cam as the
motor needs full locked out timing at idle any way.

Are you using this distributor "stand alone" or running it thru a CD ignition box ( MSD 6 etc)?
I'm using just the distributor....im goin to put fresh plugs in it my next day off i've been using the autolite 3923 are those good plugs for this application?
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  #140 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2013, 12:54 PM
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The distributor is to be locked in at Q setting 1 & 7 before being installed in the engine and set with the timing light at 36* Idling ( Or total desired) !!! And carb reset to desired Idle !! Then when you start the engine it will start at (#1 dial) retarded position and then run and idle at (#2 dial) locked out total position!! Its very easy!

As you turn the distributor to advance it to desired 36* (or total) the Idle will speed up and must be adjusted, your idle metering screws need to be adjusted too!!! You also need higher octane with the timing locked out at 36* ETC. if your running pump gas? I would run 110 for initial testing and adjust up or down later (I wouldn't want to take a chance on pre detonation)

You don't buy a pcv for a normal grocery getter, your parts store will try to sell you one that is generic!!! Tell them you want one for a specific high performance vehicle like an L88 Vette it will have a different part # !!!! You may have to order it from year one or a GM dealer!!!! The L88 Vettes pcv is designed for the big cam and less vacuum!!!!! I have a book with the PCV part #s somewhere in the house I'll have to find it but Fbird or some one else will probably have them!!!


Jester




Found it!!
L88 & 454 HO and LT1s PCV reproduction #FP 1003 , GM #9901N

Last edited by painted jester; 03-17-2013 at 01:02 PM.
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  #141 (permalink)  
Old 03-18-2013, 10:12 AM
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F-Bird'88 QUOTE: "11:1cr is too much cr for pump gas. thats why you can only run 32deg timing."

He's not sure of his compression! He's guessing its 11 to 1? Maybe its higher? If someone wants to try to run higher CR with lower octane and is willing to accept the possibility of internal damage due to audible or inaudible early detonation with loud exhaust , then that's their gamble with lower octane, but I will not advise someone to try it unless they know what they are doing. And he is inexperienced with these issues!!!

The original question didn't actually concern detonation ? It was mentioned that the car was a slug at bottom end, the problem is the engine won't run at normal timing settings and has less power than expected, so we are trying to figuring out why? By testing starting with the timing!!! Some on here are taking for granted its all in the timing and there are no other issues like octane, carb tuning, ETC

I mentioned the octane issue because we don't know till he gets it to run correctly what the problem really is. If there was no issue except the timing areas it would run fine at idle and very light loads, even on lower octane! If we could assume that octane, CR , carb, plugs, cam degree etc were right and he was experienced in tuning I wouldn't have even mentioned using higher octane to run his tests to avoid accidental detonation!!!!!

Maybe I'm out of my mind LOL But I believe in "Murphys Law" (If something unforeseen might happen! IT WILL

Jester

Last edited by painted jester; 03-18-2013 at 10:21 AM.
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  #142 (permalink)  
Old 03-18-2013, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by painted jester View Post
F-Bird'88 QUOTE: "11:1cr is too much cr for pump gas. thats why you can only run 32deg timing."

He's not sure of his compression! He's guessing its 11 to 1? Maybe its higher? If someone wants to try to run higher CR with lower octane and is willing to accept the possibility of internal damage due to audible or inaudible early detonation with loud exhaust , then that's their gamble with lower octane, but I will not advise someone to try it unless they know what they are doing. And he is inexperienced with these issues!!!

The original question didn't actually concern detonation ? It was mentioned that the car was a slug at bottom end, the problem is the engine won't run at normal timing settings and has less power than expected, so we are trying to figuring out why? By testing starting with the timing!!! Some on here are taking for granted its all in the timing and there are no other issues like octane, carb tuning, ETC

I mentioned the octane issue because we don't know till he gets it to run correctly what the problem really is. If there was no issue except the timing areas it would run fine at idle and very light loads, even on lower octane! If we could assume that octane, CR , carb, plugs, cam degree etc were right and he was experienced in tuning I wouldn't have even mentioned using higher octane to run his tests to avoid accidental detonation!!!!!

Maybe I'm out of my mind LOL But I believe in "Murphys Law" (If something unforeseen might happen! IT WILL

Jester
I'm with you.165 posts and we are no closer to fixing this thing than when we started.Seems to be stuck one one answer fit's all....................
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  #143 (permalink)  
Old 03-18-2013, 04:10 PM
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Holy balls, op. You just wasted so much time and money to get the e-curve to find out that it doesn't like the locked out timing when you could have found that out weeks ago by just locking out the old distributor!
Hell it's probably not even an ignition issue at all! Maybe just low fuel pressure or something stupid. Just spend a few hours and check it all over. Fuel pressure, valve lash, cam timing, carb adjustments, etc... You were so quick to buy the fancy part when all you had done was suspect the timing was jacked, when it might be something else all together.
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  #144 (permalink)  
Old 03-19-2013, 03:14 PM
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There is nothing wrong with the OP buying a good distributor Why say anything negative about it ?????? Its a good upgrade from stock or the cheep e bay one he was running!

We don't know if the engine will take a high total degree lock out or not "YET"!!!! He needs to find out what he did wrong when he installed the PCV and distributor (now) that caused the new problem of stalling??? It runs in neutral and stalls in gear!!!!! My guess would be a vacuum leak ? Or when he puts it in gear the timing retards as the engine load is increased and it stalls? Or a combination of both? It at least idled in gear before he did the changes so what he did was done wrong to cause the stalling! Now we have to help him through this new additional problem that was created!!!!

If one of us was there this car would have been running right in very short time! But we aren't and its hard to talk a novice through a trouble shoot session with a key board!

He is not as knowledgeable as we are!! What we can trouble shoot and fix in a couple of hour would confuse and lose him, he's on the web trying to get talked through a very complicated problem ( complicated even for today's trained mechanics). The little he does the worse it gets LOL! It must be driving him nuts to the point of using a 10 LB. sludge hammer to give it a quick tune LOL!

It may have been a simple carb change or tuning in !!!!! that led to this whole mess!

This thread got stuck on timing lockout and never wavered and most of us (I think)rather then argue let this go through the motions!!!Even though other things were mentioned! I know I did (Because I could see the arguments coming)

#1 First He removed the 750 vacuum secondary Holley and installed a Summit three stage (it has a rear power valve)its a "Street" replacement carb! with a vacuum secondary that isn't tuned and has a small single accelerator pump that hasn't been tuned!!! he stepped up the jets and changed the primary power valve (But is it right?) HE didn't touch the secondary's at all! And if the secondary power valve opens with the wrong vacuum signal applied to it Killing street performance I would pull the secondary power valve and increase jet sizes/ but being unfamiliar with this carb IM NOT QUITE SURE If its affected by the same vacuum signal as the primary power valve??

#2 he installed a $35.oo cheep e bay distributor that the manufacturer didn't even recommend for his set up (its a stock replacement item) with a limited timing curve!!!!

#3 he now installed a PCV that may be drawing too much air?

#4 he installed an E curve at the same time as the PCV and now its stalling when put in gear at idle!

I recommended The E curve Distributor change to him, it makes it easy for a novice like the OP to adjust his timing curve without having to pay $ to put it on a distributor machine or do a tear down and guess at springs and weights to install by trial and error or putting on plastic ties he seamed confused about!!! He can set the dials for street performance in traffic and lock it out at the track with the turn of the dials if he wants its very easy!

I also think those Summit carbs are junk for a race build or week end warriors with big cams I also recommended to him a carb change to a Holley 750 double pumper in the beginning of this thread!!! They both would have helped his problems! A simple change to shorter tires would have helped bottom end performance and acceleration by changing final ratio to the pavement! I also recommended pictures of the engine the way it is now so we can see the vacuum plumbing and see the set up he has! But they never were posted!




This following statement "The wrong PCV" is not meant for anyone on this thread though some might find it interesting:

The wrong PCV:
Can really give problems with idle and low end tuning. You won't find any ratings for PCV vacuum opening points cause you are getting way beyond normal peoples or shops concerns or attention to the subject beyond stock OEM replacements bought over a parts store counter. But on race built or big cam engines, An adjustable aftermarket performance PCV valve is what some engines need or you can make one like we used to! Made Out of the older PCVs that could be disassembled and cleaned by just changing or shimming the spring!!

Most running big cams and PCVs don't even think about the lowly little valve causing problems with idle and low end running prob's. It's very easy to tell if you have the wrong spring in the PCV At idle, and with the valve out of the valve cover so you can see and hear whats going on at intake vac levels, (If you run an auto trans, you need to test it at idle and in gear), if the valve opens up and sucks air when the intake vac drops a little when put in gear you will have some idle tuning issues so you dont want the valve to open up at that point. My PCV doesn't rattle when you shake it its spring holds it closed in drive with the engine Idling, Most generic PCVs suck all the time!

When a stock engine starts, vacuum in the intake manifold pulls on the ball check and sucks the PCV valve open. The ball check is pulled up against the spring and moves to its highest position. But the tapered shape of the ball check at the highest position does not allow maximum flow . Instead, it restricts flow so the engine will idle smoothly.When the engine is cruising under light load and at part throttle, there is less intake vacuum and less pull on the ball check which allows the ball check in the PCV to slide down to a mid-range position and allow more airflow through the PCV. "BUT" on low vacuum large cam engines at Idle in gear it throws the calibration of the PCV way off and allows the ball check to slide down at Idle in gear and lets more air flow through the PCV in some cases the PCV is wide open when it is not supposed to be! A good adjustable PCV that alleviates this is the Wagner Performance's Dual Flow adjustable PCV Valve! I'm not pushing this product but am suggesting some builders need it or one like it or one for an early low vacuum production engine and don't know it! Because they take that over the counter PCV for granted!

Depending on the OPs vacuum reading at idle that PCV could be stalling the engine when put in gear!!! or the power valve or both power valves are opening


This lesson on PCVs is meant for all the untrained novice builders that install big cams in unplanned builds!!!! Most of us already know this and use a different type of crankcase evacuation systems on our engines then the lowly PCV!!!!

Jester
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  #145 (permalink)  
Old 03-19-2013, 05:42 PM
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This thread got stuck on timing lockout and never wavered and most of us (I think)rather then argue let this go through the motions!!!Even though other things were mentioned! I know I did (Because I could see the arguments coming)



Yepper.Jester that is why I sat this one out rather then to ruin the O/P's thread.
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:57 PM
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I don't care if he put the e-curve waste of money up his *** and growled like a tiger it's not the damn problem, stop avoiding the fact that it's a **** combo and will never run right cause he doesn't want to fix it correctly. buy all the fancy **** you want, it's not going to change the fact that you had no idea wtf you were doing when you put it together and ended up with junk and now you want us to say oh it's ok just buy this and that and you can mask the problem but it doesn't work like that. confront the fact that you need to take the engine out and rip out all the mismatched **** that doesn't fit together and redo the whole thing. You don't even drive the car! you got the thing an hour from your house why does it even matter if you take the engine out you're not using it anyway! you could have had it done by now! but you want to be lazy and so this is what you get. a car that you can't a probably never will drive.
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:26 PM
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I don't care if he put the e-curve waste of money up his *** and growled like a tiger it's not the damn problem, stop avoiding the fact that it's a **** combo and will never run right cause he doesn't want to fix it correctly. buy all the fancy **** you want, it's not going to change the fact that you had no idea wtf you were doing when you put it together and ended up with junk and now you want us to say oh it's ok just buy this and that and you can mask the problem but it doesn't work like that. confront the fact that you need to take the engine out and rip out all the mismatched **** that doesn't fit together and redo the whole thing. You don't even drive the car! you got the thing an hour from your house why does it even matter if you take the engine out you're not using it anyway! you could have had it done by now! but you want to be lazy and so this is what you get. a car that you can't a probably never will drive.
I visited your profile and read your threads LOL your a joke LOL and have no business talking to the OP "LIKE THAT" especially after the stupid novice Questions you asked on your threads!!! AT LEAST HE ADMITS HE DOESN'T KNOW IT ALL!!!! IF YOU CAN'T SAY ANYTHING CONSTRUCTIVE JUST BOW OUT OF THE THREAD !!! Read it maybe you'll learn something.


Jester
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  #148 (permalink)  
Old 03-19-2013, 06:43 PM
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Quote:

This thread got stuck on timing lockout and never wavered and most of us (I think)rather then argue let this go through the motions!!!Even though other things were mentioned! I know I did (Because I could see the arguments coming)



Yepper.Jester that is why I sat this one out rather then to ruin the O/P's thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdog7373 View Post
I don't care if he put the e-curve waste of money up his *** and growled like a tiger it's not the damn problem, stop avoiding the fact that it's a **** combo and will never run right cause he doesn't want to fix it correctly. buy all the fancy **** you want, it's not going to change the fact that you had no idea wtf you were doing when you put it together and ended up with junk and now you want us to say oh it's ok just buy this and that and you can mask the problem but it doesn't work like that. confront the fact that you need to take the engine out and rip out all the mismatched **** that doesn't fit together and redo the whole thing. You don't even drive the car! you got the thing an hour from your house why does it even matter if you take the engine out you're not using it anyway! you could have had it done by now! but you want to be lazy and so this is what you get. a car that you can't a probably never will drive.

Not to waste anymore space on what should have happened,,I think if I can remember 12 pages ago,mismatched parts where I.D.'ed based on the parts info supplied by the O/P. But again the trouble shoot tests where never completed in entirety when the suggestion of one thing went south and many reliable members chose not to post and dropped out.

Hey who knows as a example,if given the O/P's experience level,(not a knock on O/P at all,that's what we here for to help),the cam isn't coming in until late because it is so poorly timed and needs to varied with degree wheel,that it is lucky it runs at all.Yep-I have seen them so poorly installed,but not backfire or show any signs at all.Just run like crap.
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:51 PM
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For the sake of the O/P who seems to me like a very nice patient guy................A call out for a do-over from all of us.
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:25 PM
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I really dont think it takes a do over, I see nothing wrong with a 246 duration 11:1 stroker motor with decent heads and air gap, headers etc etc like we have here.

Just put in in front of a 3800 stall with at least 4:11's in a chassis that hooks, get the particulars such as timing and carb worked out and bob is your uncle.

Not sure why we beat these dead horses from time to time, send this thread to the glue factory
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