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  #151 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2013, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by painted jester View Post
Vinnie Quote: "why would a lazy engine all of a sudden be not lazy in a different chassis? If the engine is tuned,its tuned,,,"

F-BIRD'88 Quote "Ya you can... 5 minutes spent to simply give the cammed up motor the timing it wants by simply locking out the advance curve will turn this into a whole different car. Any required tuning beyond this is minor and easy."

I agree with both of you

Lets get the Timing in and minor tune from there, it will run like a different car!!!! He has what he has and he's trying to get it dialed in LOL! I do admit he's a little slow responding with any progress in locking his total timing Either with plastic ties or the E curve dials LOL! I'm waiting for his input on the difference the timing makes and then moving on to the next step

Jester
My work schedule and cars location prevents me from being able to respond with quick results.....should have updates friday since I will have that day off.

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  #152 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2013, 01:06 PM
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(new tire diameter / old tire diameter) x old axle ratio = new axle ratio

So if your old tire is 27 inches tall and you go to 24 inches tall your final effective ratio will change to 4.20 to 1! Thats why at the track we take sets of different diameter tires and compounds for track conditions!!!

A simple change of shorter tires will change your effective gear ratio for testing your car!

Jester
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  #153 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2013, 05:14 PM
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To explain! After you get your timing set LOL

Changing tires is a good way to make minor changes to your vehicle's acceleration and top speed without having to resort to a gearing change in the differential. For instance, if you're drag racing and your engine hits its red-line before you hit the end of the drag-strip, you can install larger tires to lower the effective gear ratio. The opposite also holds true. If, at the end of the drag strip, your tachometer reads 1,000 RPM below the engine's peak power RPM then you can see some serious gains in acceleration by simply switching to a smaller tire.

Jester
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  #154 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2013, 05:26 PM
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To explain! After you get your timing set LOL

Changing tires is a good way to make minor changes to your vehicle's acceleration and top speed without having to resort to a gearing change in the differential. For instance, if you're drag racing and your engine hits its red-line before you hit the end of the drag-strip, you can install larger tires to lower the effective gear ratio. The opposite also holds true. If, at the end of the drag strip, your tachometer reads 1,000 RPM below the engine's peak power RPM then you can see some serious gains in acceleration by simply switching to a smaller tire.

Jester
i kinda figured thats where you were going with that one
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  #155 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2013, 06:17 PM
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To lock out the 'E', if (I remember right) set the switches to the "Q" setting. Switch 1 at 1, switch 2 at 7. This would give you 20 degrees of retard below 500rpm for starting. Check timing at idle should be around 36 or 38 BTDC.

So at idle with a timing light on it it should be at about 36* btdc on the timing tape with vacuum advance disconnected.

Jester

Last edited by painted jester; 03-16-2013 at 06:31 PM.
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  #156 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2013, 06:55 PM
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very lazy 400

Descent parts choice, lets get to the basics. 1) what is the timing curve?, Total advance curve should be 22 to 28 degree's with the right weight's. That way it will start easy @ 8 to 10 Degree's initial timing that will give you 38 degree's total. Never lock out dist. unless you have computer control or a timing retard for start up. Vac advance for street Mech advance for strip some street total advance 36 to 38 degrees with premium pump gas or 110. With vac advance it will make it very peppy on the street at part throttle. All mech. advance should be in by 1500 RPM. Hope this help's
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  #157 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2013, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by NastyRat View Post
Descent parts choice, lets get to the basics. 1) what is the timing curve?, Total advance curve should be 22 to 28 degree's with the right weight's. That way it will start easy @ 8 to 10 Degree's initial timing that will give you 38 degree's total. Never lock out dist. unless you have computer control or a timing retard for start up. Vac advance for street Mech advance for strip some street total advance 36 to 38 degrees with premium pump gas or 110. With vac advance it will make it very peppy on the street at part throttle. All mech. advance should be in by 1500 RPM. Hope this help's
This will not work on this motor with a auto trans. The result is a very unstable idle (as the light tension fast advance rate allows the timing to jump around at idle)
and not enough timing at idle. The motor has a crappy idle, tends to load up, and has poor throttle response.
The timing tends to jump around as rpm and manifold vacuum jump around.

The cam in this motor wants full timing right at idle 36deg BTDC.
Therefore the locked timing works best.
All you need is a ignition power interrupt switch to allow easy hot engine
restart. It is just that easy.

This is not a strip only setup. With this cam or others like it or larger
this is what works the best on the street. (auto transmission)

Then

If you have vacuum advance use the ported vacuum source for this setup.
Get a adjustable vac advance pot and limit it to 10-12deg max.
Adjust the rate and amount of added vacuum advance by drive testing at hiway cruise speeds. You do not want it all pegged in at idle. Use the ported vacuum source.
It is for part throttle light load cruising/driving.
This is what works the best on a street car with a cam this big and a auto transmission.

This is what the motor needs and this works 100% better than what you suggested, which is for a manual transmission car.

not that hard...
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  #158 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2013, 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 View Post
This will not work on this motor with a auto trans. The result is a very unstable idle (as the light tension fast advance rate allows the timing to jump around at idle)
and not enough timing at idle. The motor has a crappy idle, tends to load up, and has poor throttle response.
The timing tends to jump around as rpm and manifold vacuum jump around.

The cam in this motor wants full timing right at idle 36deg BTDC.
Therefore the locked timing works best.
All you need is a ignition power interrupt switch to allow easy hot engine
restart. It is just that easy.

This is not a strip only setup. With this cam or others like it or larger
this is what works the best on the street. (auto transmission)

Then

If you have vacuum advance use the ported vacuum source for this setup.
Get a adjustable vac advance pot and limit it to 10-12deg max.
Adjust the rate and amount of added vacuum advance by drive testing at hiway cruise speeds. You do not want it all pegged in at idle. Use the ported vacuum source.
It is for part throttle light load cruising/driving.
This is what works the best on a street car with a cam this big and a auto transmission.

This is what the motor needs and this works 100% better than what you suggested, which is for a manual transmission car.

not that hard...
I got the timing locked out and I installed a pcv but now the car is dying as soon as I put it in gear and I think I will set the distributor up to give me around 10 degrees of vacuum advance
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  #159 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2013, 01:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 90caprice408 View Post
I got the timing locked out and I installed a pcv but now the car is dying as soon as I put it in gear and I think I will set the distributor up to give me around 10 degrees of vacuum advance
You got something else going on there.

Or the basic default ignition timing is not set up right.
36deg BTDC.

re read the instructions and check the install and the setup. These distributors can be a bit pesky to get them set up correctly.
The timing must not drop when idling in gear. Must stay at 36deg BTDC.
The carb power valve must stay closed at idle.
Remove the carb and reset the thottles pri and sec idle transfer slot exposure at idle.

or, find the vacuum leak defective PCV valve or...

or a blown Power valve or just plain fouled spark plugs.

The engine must be grounded to the firewall of the car or the distributor will misfire.
Bad electrical connection.

Adding 10deg of vacuum advance is fine and about just right for street driving
but it will not fix the stalling problem. You'd want to use the ported vacuum source on the carb to control the vacuum advance.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 03-17-2013 at 01:48 AM.
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  #160 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2013, 08:14 AM
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check the cap and rotor and wires install. There is a outside change there is a problem with this
distributor..
Do a simple cylindr balance test to detect misfireing-weak cylinders, using a tach and or vacuum gauge.

You should have just locked out the HEI distributor you already had.

If you cannot trace the problem reinstall the old distributor and lock it out.

Further these e curve distributors do not advance the timing. They only work by more or less retard
from the base line setting.

Verify the actual timing at idle in gear and the timing at full advance and the accumulated total timing when vacuum advance is active. Using a timing light.

You want 36deg BTDC steady at idle in gear....36deg steady at idle in neutral.
36deg at high rpm WOT . No vacuum advance....

and +10deg of added vacuum advance when vacuum advance is active and high manifold vacuum is applied.

The start retard also accumulative. So must be accounted for in the base line distributor timing setup.

Remember this E curve distributor never actually "advances the timing" it all works by taking away timing from the base setup.

in various amount depending on the switches set up.

Use a timing light to verify each timing curve mode idle......idle in gear......... WOT max advance........and part throttle applyed vacuum advance.

The base line setup has to be readjusted depending on which amount of start retard you give it.

Like I said can be a bit pesky to get it set up right.

The idle timing must not drop when in gear or the motor will stall.

The carbs throttles pri and sec must be in the correct position (idle fuel transfer slot exposure) at idle.
Or the idle fuel curve is funky. A blown leaky power valve or a power valve that is opening at idle in gear
when manifold vacuum is lowest will mess up the idle too.
If the plugs are black fouled, replace.

These e curve distributors are more trouble than they are worth on a motor like yours with this cam as the
motor needs full locked out timing at idle any way.

Are you using this distributor "stand alone" or running it thru a CD ignition box ( MSD 6 etc)?

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 03-17-2013 at 08:43 AM.
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  #161 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2013, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 View Post
check the cap and rotor and wires install. There is a outside change there is a problem with this
distributor..
Do a simple cylindr balance test to detect misfireing-weak cylinders, using a tach and or vacuum gauge.

You should have just locked out the HEI distributor you already had.

If you cannot trace the problem reinstall the old distributor and lock it out.

Further these e curve distributors do not advance the timing. They only work by more or less retard
from the base line setting.

Verify the actual timing at idle in gear and the timing at full advance and the accumulated total timing when vacuum advance is active. Using a timing light.

You want 36deg BTDC steady at idle in gear....36deg steady at idle in neutral.
36deg at high rpm WOT . No vacuum advance....

and +10deg of added vacuum advance when vacuum advance is active and high manifold vacuum is applied.

The start retard also accumulative. So must be accounted for in the base line distributor timing setup.

Remember this E curve distributor never actually "advances the timing" it all works by taking away timing from the base setup.

in various amount depending on the switches set up.

Use a timing light to verify each timing curve mode idle......idle in gear......... WOT max advance........and part throttle applyed vacuum advance.

The base line setup has to be readjusted depending on which amount of start retard you give it.

Like I said can be a bit pesky to get it set up right.

The idle timing must not drop when in gear or the motor will stall.

The carbs throttles pri and sec must be in the correct position (idle fuel transfer slot exposure) at idle.
Or the idle fuel curve is funky. A blown leaky power valve or a power valve that is opening at idle in gear
when manifold vacuum is lowest will mess up the idle too.
If the plugs are black fouled, replace.

These e curve distributors are more trouble than they are worth on a motor like yours with this cam as the
motor needs full locked out timing at idle any way.

Are you using this distributor "stand alone" or running it thru a CD ignition box ( MSD 6 etc)?
I'm using just the distributor....im goin to put fresh plugs in it my next day off i've been using the autolite 3923 are those good plugs for this application?
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  #162 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2013, 12:54 PM
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The distributor is to be locked in at Q setting 1 & 7 before being installed in the engine and set with the timing light at 36* Idling ( Or total desired) !!! And carb reset to desired Idle !! Then when you start the engine it will start at (#1 dial) retarded position and then run and idle at (#2 dial) locked out total position!! Its very easy!

As you turn the distributor to advance it to desired 36* (or total) the Idle will speed up and must be adjusted, your idle metering screws need to be adjusted too!!! You also need higher octane with the timing locked out at 36* ETC. if your running pump gas? I would run 110 for initial testing and adjust up or down later (I wouldn't want to take a chance on pre detonation)

You don't buy a pcv for a normal grocery getter, your parts store will try to sell you one that is generic!!! Tell them you want one for a specific high performance vehicle like an L88 Vette it will have a different part # !!!! You may have to order it from year one or a GM dealer!!!! The L88 Vettes pcv is designed for the big cam and less vacuum!!!!! I have a book with the PCV part #s somewhere in the house I'll have to find it but Fbird or some one else will probably have them!!!


Jester




Found it!!
L88 & 454 HO and LT1s PCV reproduction #FP 1003 , GM #9901N

Last edited by painted jester; 03-17-2013 at 01:02 PM.
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  #163 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2013, 09:20 PM
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The added inital timing does not require more fuel octane.

it is the timing at WOT that matters, not the idle timing.

@ idle and low rpm the cylinder pressure is very low.... and there is a ton of EGR
with that cam. This really slows the fuel burn speed, requiring more timing at that idle and low rpm.

The EGR does not clear till about 3000 rpm and the cylinder pressure is low untill about 3000+ rpm
That is why the motor needs the extra timing at idle that locked timing allows.

it will not ping at low rpm even when you rug it.
With a auto trans and 3000+ stall it is never under full load below 3000 rpm anyway.

I have never had to use a specific PCV or a special one but yours may be fubared.
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  #164 (permalink)  
Old 03-18-2013, 10:12 AM
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F-Bird'88 QUOTE: "11:1cr is too much cr for pump gas. thats why you can only run 32deg timing."

He's not sure of his compression! He's guessing its 11 to 1? Maybe its higher? If someone wants to try to run higher CR with lower octane and is willing to accept the possibility of internal damage due to audible or inaudible early detonation with loud exhaust , then that's their gamble with lower octane, but I will not advise someone to try it unless they know what they are doing. And he is inexperienced with these issues!!!

The original question didn't actually concern detonation ? It was mentioned that the car was a slug at bottom end, the problem is the engine won't run at normal timing settings and has less power than expected, so we are trying to figuring out why? By testing starting with the timing!!! Some on here are taking for granted its all in the timing and there are no other issues like octane, carb tuning, ETC

I mentioned the octane issue because we don't know till he gets it to run correctly what the problem really is. If there was no issue except the timing areas it would run fine at idle and very light loads, even on lower octane! If we could assume that octane, CR , carb, plugs, cam degree etc were right and he was experienced in tuning I wouldn't have even mentioned using higher octane to run his tests to avoid accidental detonation!!!!!

Maybe I'm out of my mind LOL But I believe in "Murphys Law" (If something unforeseen might happen! IT WILL

Jester

Last edited by painted jester; 03-18-2013 at 10:21 AM.
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  #165 (permalink)  
Old 03-18-2013, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by painted jester View Post
F-Bird'88 QUOTE: "11:1cr is too much cr for pump gas. thats why you can only run 32deg timing."

He's not sure of his compression! He's guessing its 11 to 1? Maybe its higher? If someone wants to try to run higher CR with lower octane and is willing to accept the possibility of internal damage due to audible or inaudible early detonation with loud exhaust , then that's their gamble with lower octane, but I will not advise someone to try it unless they know what they are doing. And he is inexperienced with these issues!!!

The original question didn't actually concern detonation ? It was mentioned that the car was a slug at bottom end, the problem is the engine won't run at normal timing settings and has less power than expected, so we are trying to figuring out why? By testing starting with the timing!!! Some on here are taking for granted its all in the timing and there are no other issues like octane, carb tuning, ETC

I mentioned the octane issue because we don't know till he gets it to run correctly what the problem really is. If there was no issue except the timing areas it would run fine at idle and very light loads, even on lower octane! If we could assume that octane, CR , carb, plugs, cam degree etc were right and he was experienced in tuning I wouldn't have even mentioned using higher octane to run his tests to avoid accidental detonation!!!!!

Maybe I'm out of my mind LOL But I believe in "Murphys Law" (If something unforeseen might happen! IT WILL

Jester
I'm with you.165 posts and we are no closer to fixing this thing than when we started.Seems to be stuck one one answer fit's all....................
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