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  #166 (permalink)  
Old 03-18-2013, 03:10 PM
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Holy balls, op. You just wasted so much time and money to get the e-curve to find out that it doesn't like the locked out timing when you could have found that out weeks ago by just locking out the old distributor!
Hell it's probably not even an ignition issue at all! Maybe just low fuel pressure or something stupid. Just spend a few hours and check it all over. Fuel pressure, valve lash, cam timing, carb adjustments, etc... You were so quick to buy the fancy part when all you had done was suspect the timing was jacked, when it might be something else all together.

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  #167 (permalink)  
Old 03-19-2013, 02:14 PM
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There is nothing wrong with the OP buying a good distributor Why say anything negative about it ?????? Its a good upgrade from stock or the cheep e bay one he was running!

We don't know if the engine will take a high total degree lock out or not "YET"!!!! He needs to find out what he did wrong when he installed the PCV and distributor (now) that caused the new problem of stalling??? It runs in neutral and stalls in gear!!!!! My guess would be a vacuum leak ? Or when he puts it in gear the timing retards as the engine load is increased and it stalls? Or a combination of both? It at least idled in gear before he did the changes so what he did was done wrong to cause the stalling! Now we have to help him through this new additional problem that was created!!!!

If one of us was there this car would have been running right in very short time! But we aren't and its hard to talk a novice through a trouble shoot session with a key board!

He is not as knowledgeable as we are!! What we can trouble shoot and fix in a couple of hour would confuse and lose him, he's on the web trying to get talked through a very complicated problem ( complicated even for today's trained mechanics). The little he does the worse it gets LOL! It must be driving him nuts to the point of using a 10 LB. sludge hammer to give it a quick tune LOL!

It may have been a simple carb change or tuning in !!!!! that led to this whole mess!

This thread got stuck on timing lockout and never wavered and most of us (I think)rather then argue let this go through the motions!!!Even though other things were mentioned! I know I did (Because I could see the arguments coming)

#1 First He removed the 750 vacuum secondary Holley and installed a Summit three stage (it has a rear power valve)its a "Street" replacement carb! with a vacuum secondary that isn't tuned and has a small single accelerator pump that hasn't been tuned!!! he stepped up the jets and changed the primary power valve (But is it right?) HE didn't touch the secondary's at all! And if the secondary power valve opens with the wrong vacuum signal applied to it Killing street performance I would pull the secondary power valve and increase jet sizes/ but being unfamiliar with this carb IM NOT QUITE SURE If its affected by the same vacuum signal as the primary power valve??

#2 he installed a $35.oo cheep e bay distributor that the manufacturer didn't even recommend for his set up (its a stock replacement item) with a limited timing curve!!!!

#3 he now installed a PCV that may be drawing too much air?

#4 he installed an E curve at the same time as the PCV and now its stalling when put in gear at idle!

I recommended The E curve Distributor change to him, it makes it easy for a novice like the OP to adjust his timing curve without having to pay $ to put it on a distributor machine or do a tear down and guess at springs and weights to install by trial and error or putting on plastic ties he seamed confused about!!! He can set the dials for street performance in traffic and lock it out at the track with the turn of the dials if he wants its very easy!

I also think those Summit carbs are junk for a race build or week end warriors with big cams I also recommended to him a carb change to a Holley 750 double pumper in the beginning of this thread!!! They both would have helped his problems! A simple change to shorter tires would have helped bottom end performance and acceleration by changing final ratio to the pavement! I also recommended pictures of the engine the way it is now so we can see the vacuum plumbing and see the set up he has! But they never were posted!




This following statement "The wrong PCV" is not meant for anyone on this thread though some might find it interesting:

The wrong PCV:
Can really give problems with idle and low end tuning. You won't find any ratings for PCV vacuum opening points cause you are getting way beyond normal peoples or shops concerns or attention to the subject beyond stock OEM replacements bought over a parts store counter. But on race built or big cam engines, An adjustable aftermarket performance PCV valve is what some engines need or you can make one like we used to! Made Out of the older PCVs that could be disassembled and cleaned by just changing or shimming the spring!!

Most running big cams and PCVs don't even think about the lowly little valve causing problems with idle and low end running prob's. It's very easy to tell if you have the wrong spring in the PCV At idle, and with the valve out of the valve cover so you can see and hear whats going on at intake vac levels, (If you run an auto trans, you need to test it at idle and in gear), if the valve opens up and sucks air when the intake vac drops a little when put in gear you will have some idle tuning issues so you dont want the valve to open up at that point. My PCV doesn't rattle when you shake it its spring holds it closed in drive with the engine Idling, Most generic PCVs suck all the time!

When a stock engine starts, vacuum in the intake manifold pulls on the ball check and sucks the PCV valve open. The ball check is pulled up against the spring and moves to its highest position. But the tapered shape of the ball check at the highest position does not allow maximum flow . Instead, it restricts flow so the engine will idle smoothly.When the engine is cruising under light load and at part throttle, there is less intake vacuum and less pull on the ball check which allows the ball check in the PCV to slide down to a mid-range position and allow more airflow through the PCV. "BUT" on low vacuum large cam engines at Idle in gear it throws the calibration of the PCV way off and allows the ball check to slide down at Idle in gear and lets more air flow through the PCV in some cases the PCV is wide open when it is not supposed to be! A good adjustable PCV that alleviates this is the Wagner Performance's Dual Flow adjustable PCV Valve! I'm not pushing this product but am suggesting some builders need it or one like it or one for an early low vacuum production engine and don't know it! Because they take that over the counter PCV for granted!

Depending on the OPs vacuum reading at idle that PCV could be stalling the engine when put in gear!!! or the power valve or both power valves are opening


This lesson on PCVs is meant for all the untrained novice builders that install big cams in unplanned builds!!!! Most of us already know this and use a different type of crankcase evacuation systems on our engines then the lowly PCV!!!!

Jester
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  #168 (permalink)  
Old 03-19-2013, 04:42 PM
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This thread got stuck on timing lockout and never wavered and most of us (I think)rather then argue let this go through the motions!!!Even though other things were mentioned! I know I did (Because I could see the arguments coming)



Yepper.Jester that is why I sat this one out rather then to ruin the O/P's thread.
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  #169 (permalink)  
Old 03-19-2013, 04:57 PM
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I don't care if he put the e-curve waste of money up his *** and growled like a tiger it's not the damn problem, stop avoiding the fact that it's a **** combo and will never run right cause he doesn't want to fix it correctly. buy all the fancy **** you want, it's not going to change the fact that you had no idea wtf you were doing when you put it together and ended up with junk and now you want us to say oh it's ok just buy this and that and you can mask the problem but it doesn't work like that. confront the fact that you need to take the engine out and rip out all the mismatched **** that doesn't fit together and redo the whole thing. You don't even drive the car! you got the thing an hour from your house why does it even matter if you take the engine out you're not using it anyway! you could have had it done by now! but you want to be lazy and so this is what you get. a car that you can't a probably never will drive.
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  #170 (permalink)  
Old 03-19-2013, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bigdog7373 View Post
I don't care if he put the e-curve waste of money up his *** and growled like a tiger it's not the damn problem, stop avoiding the fact that it's a **** combo and will never run right cause he doesn't want to fix it correctly. buy all the fancy **** you want, it's not going to change the fact that you had no idea wtf you were doing when you put it together and ended up with junk and now you want us to say oh it's ok just buy this and that and you can mask the problem but it doesn't work like that. confront the fact that you need to take the engine out and rip out all the mismatched **** that doesn't fit together and redo the whole thing. You don't even drive the car! you got the thing an hour from your house why does it even matter if you take the engine out you're not using it anyway! you could have had it done by now! but you want to be lazy and so this is what you get. a car that you can't a probably never will drive.
I visited your profile and read your threads LOL your a joke LOL and have no business talking to the OP "LIKE THAT" especially after the stupid novice Questions you asked on your threads!!! AT LEAST HE ADMITS HE DOESN'T KNOW IT ALL!!!! IF YOU CAN'T SAY ANYTHING CONSTRUCTIVE JUST BOW OUT OF THE THREAD !!! Read it maybe you'll learn something.


Jester
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  #171 (permalink)  
Old 03-19-2013, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by 1Gary View Post
Quote:

This thread got stuck on timing lockout and never wavered and most of us (I think)rather then argue let this go through the motions!!!Even though other things were mentioned! I know I did (Because I could see the arguments coming)



Yepper.Jester that is why I sat this one out rather then to ruin the O/P's thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdog7373 View Post
I don't care if he put the e-curve waste of money up his *** and growled like a tiger it's not the damn problem, stop avoiding the fact that it's a **** combo and will never run right cause he doesn't want to fix it correctly. buy all the fancy **** you want, it's not going to change the fact that you had no idea wtf you were doing when you put it together and ended up with junk and now you want us to say oh it's ok just buy this and that and you can mask the problem but it doesn't work like that. confront the fact that you need to take the engine out and rip out all the mismatched **** that doesn't fit together and redo the whole thing. You don't even drive the car! you got the thing an hour from your house why does it even matter if you take the engine out you're not using it anyway! you could have had it done by now! but you want to be lazy and so this is what you get. a car that you can't a probably never will drive.

Not to waste anymore space on what should have happened,,I think if I can remember 12 pages ago,mismatched parts where I.D.'ed based on the parts info supplied by the O/P. But again the trouble shoot tests where never completed in entirety when the suggestion of one thing went south and many reliable members chose not to post and dropped out.

Hey who knows as a example,if given the O/P's experience level,(not a knock on O/P at all,that's what we here for to help),the cam isn't coming in until late because it is so poorly timed and needs to varied with degree wheel,that it is lucky it runs at all.Yep-I have seen them so poorly installed,but not backfire or show any signs at all.Just run like crap.
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  #172 (permalink)  
Old 03-19-2013, 05:51 PM
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For the sake of the O/P who seems to me like a very nice patient guy................A call out for a do-over from all of us.
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  #173 (permalink)  
Old 03-19-2013, 06:25 PM
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I really dont think it takes a do over, I see nothing wrong with a 246 duration 11:1 stroker motor with decent heads and air gap, headers etc etc like we have here.

Just put in in front of a 3800 stall with at least 4:11's in a chassis that hooks, get the particulars such as timing and carb worked out and bob is your uncle.

Not sure why we beat these dead horses from time to time, send this thread to the glue factory
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:17 PM
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Edit:word needed was "verified" on a degree wheel.
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  #175 (permalink)  
Old 03-19-2013, 07:32 PM
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I visited your profile and read your threads LOL your a joke LOL and have no business talking to the OP "LIKE THAT" especially after the stupid novice Questions you asked on your threads!!! AT LEAST HE ADMITS HE DOESN'T KNOW IT ALL!!!! IF YOU CAN'T SAY ANYTHING CONSTRUCTIVE JUST BOW OUT OF THE THREAD !!! Read it maybe you'll learn something.


Jester
Is that really what you want to say? Criticize my occasional "novice question". Nowhere did i say that i know everything. Not even close. The op was told the combo was bad at the first page of the thread, he decided to leave it cause somehow he thinks it's gonna work. Fbird tells him to see how it responds to locked timing and instead of doing it weeks ago he has spent this whole time jacking us around and wasting everyones time so i feel that i'll talk to him however i feel necessary to get my point across. And you want to defend him. Like you have such great info to give. Yea, change your tire size, cause that will definitely tune the engine. Awesome friggin idea. You literally said it was an impressive build on the first page! It's not! His cam is massive, the converter is tight, the intake is for high rpm, yet he wants low end grunt. He has a motor that will just start to make power at 3000, but is backed by a converter that locks up at 3000, in a big heavy car. In no way is that a good combo. NOT IN A MILLION YEARS.
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:57 PM
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Is that really what you want to say? Criticize my occasional "novice question". Nowhere did i say that i know everything. Not even close. The op was told the combo was bad at the first page of the thread, he decided to leave it cause somehow he thinks it's gonna work. Fbird tells him to see how it responds to locked timing and instead of doing it weeks ago he has spent this whole time jacking us around and wasting everyones time so i feel that i'll talk to him however i feel necessary to get my point across. And you want to defend him. Like you have such great info to give. Yea, change your tire size, cause that will definitely tune the engine. Awesome friggin idea. You literally said it was an impressive build on the first page! It's not! His cam is massive, the converter is tight, the intake is for high rpm, yet he wants low end grunt. He has a motor that will just start to make power at 3000, but is backed by a converter that locks up at 3000, in a big heavy car. In no way is that a good combo. NOT IN A MILLION YEARS.
I see you cant read either LOL

I said Quote: "Why did you plan a build like this for your first (just curious) Its one hell of an accomplishment for your first build Who suggested that cam to you?"
I also said Quote: "After you get your timing set LOL
Changing tires is a good way to make minor changes to your vehicle's acceleration and top speed without having to resort to a gearing change"

You should read the entire post and not skip things! you miss a lot that way

The OP said it ran great and pulled hard from around 3,000 RPM just what his build with that cam should do, and most people that build that type of engine expect a week bottom end on the street! He just wants it better at bottom end! The engine isn't a bad combo if tuned in!!! It might be a bad choice for his chassis and running gear! But that can be approached and taken care of later! If he tears it apart and redose it he may gain bottom end but then lose the pull at top end he likes! I'll defend anyone on here even you, I have plenty of patience for him or anyone else to get things dialed in! I don't ridicule OPs with 4 letter words or run their builds down to embarrass them to other members thinking it will make them move faster! I get on here because I enjoy it! I don't look at it like its my job and get up tight or pis-sed and say things like this:

"put the e-curve waste of money up his *** and growled like a tiger"

"stop avoiding the fact that it's a **** combo and will never run right"

"buy all the fancy **** you want, it's not going to change the fact that you had no idea wtf you were doing when you put it together and ended up with junk"

"rip out all the mismatched **** that doesn't fit together and redo the whole thing."

"He has a motor that will just start to make power at 3000, but is backed by a converter that locks up at 3000, in a big heavy car. In no way is that a good combo. NOT IN A MILLION YEARS."

By the way no one knows when that converter locks up at? That depends on the flash torque the engine puts on it! Not the advertised stall speed a manufacturer puts on it! An advertised 2500 stall converter could stall at 3800 rpm with enough torque applied to it at flash point!

Jester
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  #177 (permalink)  
Old 03-20-2013, 04:34 AM
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I really dont think it takes a do over, I see nothing wrong with a 246 duration 11:1 stroker motor with decent heads and air gap, headers etc etc like we have here.

Just put in in front of a 3800 stall with at least 4:11's in a chassis that hooks, get the particulars such as timing and carb worked out and bob is your uncle.

Not sure why we beat these dead horses from time to time, send this thread to the glue factory
It's not that I disagree with you on the cam/stroker/compression question.It's more a question of given the O/P's experience level if a compounding factor if the cam is installed right and confirming that as a foundation to go on from there. I am giving him tons of credit for the assembly he did and getting it running,but then again apart of the tune is degree'ing the cam.
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Old 03-20-2013, 07:12 AM
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When you have an engine that seems to have the right parts and is close on tune and still wont run, consider replacing the camshaft as it may be defective. I have only seen it a few times, and only with cams from one company, but the change in performance was dramatic, pretty much night and day.
I recommend Isky for cams, whether catalog or custom grinds.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:20 PM
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How Many miles do you have on this engine ?, has it seen any track tuning time?

Your PCV is that the one that is covered by the pretty looking fake breather? If it is The bottom of that breather the PCV goes in are notorious for sucking air and seeping oil out the bottom plate they are crimped on and not sealed or welded solid where the grommet goes! I had one on my Vette I had to seal the bottom seam of the fake breather with silicone!

This has nothing to do with your build its just an explanation of trouble shooting even though its some of your same components its a build I did before I retired and sold my shop! For a customer that supplied his own parts for a blue print. Ive installed and ran that same Lunati cam the last one I installed straight up with 1.6 roller rockers, pro comp aluminum heads, 12 to 1 C.R.. in a 355, 350 trans B&M 3000 stall, stock posi 3.73 gear 27" tall tires (stock size tires). The performance in a 3600 pound car (76 Vette) at the track was great, It launched and pulled hard from 2400rpm on up with the rpm air gap intake (that I don't like) LOL, initial timing was 10 total 34 no vacuum advance the B&M 3000 converter flash stalled at 3400, the carb was a BG 750 vacuum secondary and 1 3/4 primary long tube headers. I built it with what the customer wanted! It ran high 13s in the 1/4 on street tires and premium pump gas during tune up runs. But the customer didn't like the bottom end performance when he drove on the street. He wanted the power down low to show off!! It was ok normal stop and go traffic but if he showered down on it at a low roll it wouldn't put him back in the seat till he it hit about 2400 rpm!

First thing I did was put a 750 Holley double pumper on it, it helped a lot right out of the box changed power valve and re jetted, tuned in accelerator pumps and it was better, then set initial time up to 16 btdc and and total to 38
helped even more, but couldn't run pump gas without octane booster or cranking back the timing, Got down to low 13s. Bottom end street performance was better, but not to his liking yet so I pulled the 1.6 rockers off the intakes and put 1.5s on and kept the 1.6s on the exhausts set the valves with a vacume gauge, it woke the engine up a little at the bottom but lost at the top! LOL But he liked it better at the bottom so we kept the 1.5 rockers on the intakes.

The engine was performing better at the bottom, he asked if he could get more, and I mentioned advancing the cam or going to a new cam more suitable to bottom end power we decided I would advance the cam to see what it would do and it really came alive at about 1900 rpm and had no lag, it was much more to his liking I suggested a better intake to match his power band but he liked the RPM air gap! We dropped to 25" tires with a wider foot print and bottom end performance increased and the flash stall went from 3400 to 2900 RPM, so now he goes back to 27 inch tires at the track and the flash stall of 3400 gives him a better stage launch and it launches better at the track, and he runs the 25 inch on the street he has better acceleration at bottom end for normal driving!

I only saw him once since then at a show last fall his only complaint was when it got cold (NORTHERN MICHIGAN, OCTOBER PUMPKIN RUN) that air gap intake would frost and the carb throat would frost but he still won't change it and also had to mix racing gas with pump gas! He was happy with the rest.

I HATE TYPING I use one finger and it takes forever

It takes a long enough time to tune a build that's well planed and has well matched eng. to chassis components, let alone a build that makes you happy at top end but not at bottom! And your on a budget!

After building many combinations and different RPM range race or street engines for Chevy, Mopar, Ford, ETC we on here know what works like Fbird, Cobalt, Vinnie, #1 Gary, Custom10 Etc, Etc, our initial suggestions on where to start on a tune may very and we may see what another reader doesn't notice in our reading of a thread but we come to agreement on the Finnish its just our experiences over the years with different combinations that vary where we start a tune in, or give an answer on a thread that makes our suggestions different from each other and we sometimes bump heads LOL

I wrote this because it shows how long it takes to tune in a build that a persons not happy with even for a professional! When your build is for rpm and top end power at the track and it doesn't satisfy you when you try to put it on the street! A person cant have BOTH you have to sacrifice at bottom or top end!!! You trouble shoot and change 1 thing at a time and do it first and walk your way through the trouble shooting process (it takes a lot of time and knowledge from experience with other builds over years)_!!!! You don't do 2 changes at once it compounds things if you have problems you now have 2 things to trouble shoot, rather then knowing the problem is in the 1 thing you did!!!! FBird mentioned timing lock out some of us disagreed in the beginning and mentioned other places to start!(bumped heads) But we all met and backed off to start at the lock out test (our heads came together) LOL But we could have all come together at carb tuning or any other point someone brought up It made no difference where we started trouble shooting your engine! As long as it gets started somewhere

About converter stall ( you may already know this?)
Flash stall can change just by reworking the load that the converter sees. For instance, if the car has a 4.11:1 rear axle ratio and the flash stall is 2,500 rpm on a launch, a change to a 3.73:1 gear or taller tires might see the flash speed increase to 3,000 rpm. Why? the load on the converter went up making the converter slip more! The weight of the car will change flash stall speed too, lighter vehicles will lower the flash stall speed; heavier vehicles will raise flash stall. If the same car had the rear gear swapped for a 5.13:1 ratio, this would cause the flash stall speed to go down. because the converter has begun to couple up progressively as the load it sees gets lower. A combination with a 4.33:1 gear or shorter tires would make the car easier to move when compared to the 4.11:1 or 3.73:1 and tall tire combinations the 4.33:1 would lower the flash stall more the 3.73 would raise it!

That's why the good converter manufacturers want the info on car weight, tire size, cam info, Etc,Etc, Brake stall is nothing but just a basic set measure When the converter over rides the average foot brake holding ability with no knowledge of any particular vehicle, eng. torque or build its the flash stall that's important when choosing a converter!!

Example:
A Vega 4 cylinder converter will stall coupled to the stock Vega engine about lets say 1000 RPM but put that same Vega converter behind a stock 350 and it will flash stall way up to 3000 rpm put it on a 454 big block and it will stall at flash 4500 rpm! All the old racers on here know this about converters we ran them LOL they didn't last very long LOL but were cheep at any junk yard and would last a weekend at the track LOL

Jester


Crappy weather here, parts I ordered aren't in yet for Mopar 383 build and I got carried away typing what I was thinking about! Drinking coffee LOL watching Gun Smoke and Bonanza LOL . I was going to delete all of it except for the part about the PCV! But then thought someone might like or enjoy the read

Don't do this stupid thing Im going to Mention
I WAS JUST THINKING ABOUT a "B" Gasser I ran in the late '60s all top end locked out REV POLE dual point at 42 degrees, idled at 3000 rpm, well I used to take it down the street to a DOG & SUDS on a week end every once and a great while for a root beer float LOL It was a real slug at bottom end but man on a 4500 RPM launch from the stop light to the drive way of the S&D it was great and drew a big crowd when I pulled in !!!!! I would never have changed it for more bottom end power!!!! It did exactly what I built it to do!!!!!!! And I was happy with it and I had no business putting it on the street even just to go a couple of blocks Years latter around '72 I built a street sleeper engine and converted the Gasser to street legal car. And always missed the old top end power!


Wow my typing fingers BLEEDING LOL
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Old 03-21-2013, 03:27 AM
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Jester.I too have seen people get crossed up trying to integrate race only parts for street use. I think some of that comes from the comic auto book magazine articles which seldom tells the whole story as long as it promotes the parts for sales.Street strip cars do exist but as you say with some trade offs.The thing at gets me is how confused the market is on parts.Everyone is promoting bigger ports,bigger cams,and at the end of the day it all leads to power bands that are not the normal driving range in RPM or used very little.I think it is a horrible injustice we still put so much in hp and ignore how much off idle torque means for street driven vehicles. Gezz all the money spent and the limited use for it. We still field questions all the time about someones combo and how much hp will it have. For me a builder worth his salt knows how mix parts to build a engine that has a smooth transition for both ends and makes sacrifices alittle on each. I still to this day hold guys on the street that are sleepers with engines that purr like a kitten,but when they hit the loud peddle roar like a lion in very high regard.


BTW the poser cams...........................OMG what a bunch of B.S.!!!!!.
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