very lazy 400 - Page 5 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #61 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2013, 06:21 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: columbia sc
Posts: 45
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 5
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327 View Post
That's a plan. When you get to the locked timing, remember to reset the timing to fully advanced after the mechanical advance mechanism is locked. This will take a dial back timing light or a timing tape to see the timing that far advanced- the stock timing tab will not help.
I have the aftermarket timing tab with the timing tape.....that timing tape has been one of the best things I invested money in

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #62 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2013, 07:39 PM
F-BIRD'88's Avatar
Yada Yada Yada
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,153
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 5
Thanked 380 Times in 374 Posts
If /when using a timing curve for this cam you cannot get the desired centrif curve by just swaping the advanced springs. You will need a minimum of 26deg base timing at idle. That requires restricting the travel of the advance mechanism to 10deg.
(stock is usually 20-24deg)

Look at the posted link on moding a HEI. Look at the picture. It real simple.
One screw restricts the mech travel..(the amount is relative to the sized of the screw head diameter). The other method simply locks the mechansim.

26deg base at idle +++10 deg advance curve 36deg at max advance.
The lightest tension springs give inconsistant results.

But, You will find the locked out timing on this engine, with this cam, works the best.
Save yourself the time and experimentation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #63 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2013, 07:52 PM
F-BIRD'88's Avatar
Yada Yada Yada
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,153
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 5
Thanked 380 Times in 374 Posts
Then you can correct the location of the your aftermarket timing tab so it reads true TDC, by using Piston
stop to find true TDC.
They are never accurate.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #64 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2013, 04:17 AM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 90caprice408 View Post
I will more than likely try both methods to see how it responds to each...will try the light springs first(maybe 1 light 1 medium) bein that I bought a recurve kit a while back but never used it.....and if that doesn't work I will go with the locked out method...
Just use the light springs for testing- the idea is to see if the engine actually wants to run w/a ton of advance or if it will detonate under heavy throttle/heavy load below 3000 rpm or so- which is the normal "all in by" rpm. Using the light springs, once you see if the engine detonates under load or not you can decide whether to use some mechanical advance or not.

To run a big cam/locked advance you really need a loose torque converter- is yours actually stalling at 3000 rpm or more? Steeper rear gears will help w/this as well. With a too tight TC and/or highway gears, detonation is more likely w/locked timing. Whether the 3.73s and the TC you have is enough or not remains to be seen.

Ideally for a car as heavy as yours is you'd put a smaller cam in the engine along w/using the correct compression to match the cam, but if you're bound to keep the cam, you should go w/more gear and stall. Gutting 600 lbs. would help, too. I've seen estimates of 4000-4200 lbs for a 1990 Caprice.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #65 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2013, 06:12 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: columbia sc
Posts: 45
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 5
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327 View Post
Just use the light springs for testing- the idea is to see if the engine actually wants to run w/a ton of advance or if it will detonate under heavy throttle/heavy load below 3000 rpm or so- which is the normal "all in by" rpm. Using the light springs, once you see if the engine detonates under load or not you can decide whether to use some mechanical advance or not.

To run a big cam/locked advance you really need a loose torque converter- is yours actually stalling at 3000 rpm or more? Steeper rear gears will help w/this as well. With a too tight TC and/or highway gears, detonation is more likely w/locked timing. Whether the 3.73s and the TC you have is enough or not remains to be seen.

Ideally for a car as heavy as yours is you'd put a smaller cam in the engine along w/using the correct compression to match the cam, but if you're bound to keep the cam, you should go w/more gear and stall. Gutting 600 lbs. would help, too. I've seen estimates of 4000-4200 lbs for a 1990 Caprice.
I definitely was gonna go with a bigger gear 4:30 to be exact....I think the converter is stalling right at 3000..im also mixing premium(93) with 110 race fuel so I should be able to get away with more advance
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #66 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2013, 06:59 AM
1Gary's Avatar
Registered User
 

Last journal entry: 383 dyno sym
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Roch,NY
Age: 67
Posts: 1,538
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 201
Thanked 156 Times in 142 Posts
Reviewed from page one..............OMG!!!!.

We a assumed the info from the O/P is correct,(sorry guy,but some major mistakes where already make),that the SCR is wrong,the cam is wrong,the T/C is wrong.BUT we're gone-a-fix it.Ignoring all that tech advise.

And we know it's your first build,the thing is the tactic of this build was is cheaper/faster,and your still following that path to this day.Haven't changed abit.It continues into patch work repairs.SO excuse me,but I am using your issues as a illustration for us always telling people about a matched parts build.That matched parts buildIS IN NO SMALL PART A MAJOR PART OF THE TUNE

As for you F-Bird.At no time as a prelim to locking out the advance did I see you advise to read the plugs,check the carb,look at the A/F mixture.When was the day you woke up and decided you and only you have the one right answer??.Every day I come on this forum I learn more and that is after extensive experience as you know.Guess I don't have that magic ability that apparent you do to put me ear to the screen and be just like I'm there. So I am calling for you to find some modesty to get back on the learning path.Give and take so to speak.


To the O/P.My advise to you Sir is you have to change your tactics.If you made a mistake,you have to fix it.Patch work repairs now isn't going to get you to reap the benefits of all that money spent already.One thing that jumped out at me(maybe I missed it)is how you exactly you got to 11 to 1 with short 400 rods??.Question-how much risk are you willing to take before blowing a hole threw a piston or wrecking some rings with trial and error before your willing to face that fact no patch work repair is ever going to get-it-right. You do know that 400's are thin wall blocks that should be final sized with torque plates,those 400's walls should be sonic checked and mag, the walls move around alot,and the 400's DO NOT like putting up with much B.S. A expensive lesson??.Yep.It is the main reason the guys(well some of them anyways)post on here during guys gaining advise during a build are taught cam/compression comparability,T/C complements,rear end gear ratio's and tire size.Also how and why to measure exactly what you have to apply to the build.Not trying to be offensive in my comments,but honestly I'm not convinced you do.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to 1Gary For This Useful Post:
painted jester (02-26-2013)
  #67 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2013, 07:08 AM
1Gary's Avatar
Registered User
 

Last journal entry: 383 dyno sym
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Roch,NY
Age: 67
Posts: 1,538
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 201
Thanked 156 Times in 142 Posts
All the above is I'm NOT trying to bust your chops.Well maybe alittle to get you to face a do-over is called for. As a preview,don't come back on here with some haft bass move and say it's all better. Because my reply will be little do you know what all your missing.................
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #68 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2013, 07:29 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: columbia sc
Posts: 45
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 5
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Gary View Post
Reviewed from page one..............OMG!!!!.

We a assumed the info from the O/P is correct,(sorry guy,but some major mistakes where already make),that the SCR is wrong,the cam is wrong,the T/C is wrong.BUT we're gone-a-fix it.Ignoring all that tech advise.

And we know it's your first build,the thing is the tactic of this build was is cheaper/faster,and your still following that path to this day.Haven't changed abit.It continues into patch work repairs.SO excuse me,but I am using your issues as a illustration for us always telling people about a matched parts build.That matched parts buildIS IN NO SMALL PART A MAJOR PART OF THE TUNE

As for you F-Bird.At no time as a prelim to locking out the advance did I see you advise to read the plugs,check the carb,look at the A/F mixture.When was the day you woke up and decided you and only you have the one right answer??.Every day I come on this forum I learn more and that is after extensive experience as you know.Guess I don't have that magic ability that apparent you do to put me ear to the screen and be just like I'm there. So I am calling for you to find some modesty to get back on the learning path.Give and take so to speak.


To the O/P.My advise to you Sir is you have to change your tactics.If you made a mistake,you have to fix it.Patch work repairs now isn't going to get you to reap the benefits of all that money spent already.One thing that jumped out at me(maybe I missed it)is how you exactly you got to 11 to 1 with short 400 rods??.Question-how much risk are you willing to take before blowing a hole threw a piston or wrecking some rings with trial and error before your willing to face that fact no patch work repair is ever going to get-it-right. You do know that 400's are thin wall blocks that should be final sized with torque plates,those 400's walls should be sonic checked and mag, the walls move around alot,and the 400's DO NOT like putting up with much B.S. A expensive lesson??.Yep.It is the main reason the guys(well some of them anyways)post on here during guys gaining advise during a build are taught cam/compression comparability,T/C complements,rear end gear ratio's and tire size.Also how and why to measure exactly what you have to apply to the build.Not trying to be offensive in my comments,but honestly I'm not convinced you do.
The whole purpose of me posting was to see if I could get any help making the current combination to work better as is.....yes the cam might be wrong the t/c might be wrong but I did not want to sink too much more money into this build just want it to perform a little better on the low end if possible...will take everything i've learned in here towards my next build...so basically everybody's post in here have been their views on what would get me the response I was looking for.....As far as the compression being 11 to 1....if u go to the first page I never said it was exactly that I said it was around 11:1...and this build does not have the short 400 rods
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #69 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2013, 10:18 AM
1Gary's Avatar
Registered User
 

Last journal entry: 383 dyno sym
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Roch,NY
Age: 67
Posts: 1,538
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 201
Thanked 156 Times in 142 Posts
That is my criticism.Rather than fixing mismatched parts on this build,your doing more of the same saying on the "next build". By"tinkering" your increasing the chance that "next build" will be sooner than you think.

This isn't a guess.We have successful professionally sportsman's campaigned OEM 400's in 9.90 class for 10's yrs.

Your right.It's just your money............................
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #70 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2013, 11:38 AM
F-BIRD'88's Avatar
Yada Yada Yada
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,153
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 5
Thanked 380 Times in 374 Posts
Unlike some people here that seem to be professional forum advisors, I can say without all the BS that you need to start by fixing the distributor. Lock it out. The rest will come easy.

This is where to start. You are not he first guy to build a SBC or use that cam in a SBC.

6 days and 5 pages later and you have not fixed your car yet.
its about 10 minutes work.

You engine is lazy at low rpm because the timing curve is wrong for the cam.
The thing needs a ton of advance at idle. Don't need to know anything else about it to know this.
Don't need to write a book about it.

Fix the stupid distributor.

This is not rocket science. There is nothing wrong with your combo.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 02-26-2013 at 11:43 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #71 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2013, 11:50 AM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
I think what's being said is that regardless of how you crutch things up, there will be room for improvement w/a better matched setup.

I suspect using a lot of initial, all the way to locking the timing (just like a B&S lawnmower), will make an improvement in idle quality and off idle response. But an improvement does not mean it is set up right, it only means you will be able to enjoy it more than you would if you left it w/o enough initial timing. This is especially true on a street machine that will see a lot of different driving conditions. I think sometimes guys forget that what's best for a race car is not always going to be right for ALL cars.

I suspect the race gas mixing and such will get old pretty quick, especially if you plan on actually using the car on a regular basis. The way it is now, every time you visit the race gas pump you could be paying an installment on the right parts, and I think you totally get all this.

On the bright side, one thing you have going for you is displacement. If this was a 355 SBC w/the same parts combo, you'd be out of luck.

One last thing: sneak up on the total timing unless you're sure the octane is sufficient to prevent detonation. Starting out 4-6 degrees lower than normal would be a good idea, advance it 2 degrees at a time until you see it slow down in mph at the end of the 1/4 mile. Then go back to the previous setting- that'll be the total you want. You'll also want to know what's the max timing you can get by with using straight pump gas, in the event you get stranded somewhere where race gas isn't available. You can mark the distributor to show the two max timing settings so you can eyeball the timing by simply turning the distributor if need be.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #72 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2013, 11:59 AM
F-BIRD'88's Avatar
Yada Yada Yada
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,153
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 5
Thanked 380 Times in 374 Posts
My recommendation is not for a race car .. Its for your street car.
Unlike the others I actually build and tune these cars.

Gary you are essentually just a used car sales man. You have no technical skill in this area. That is very clear to me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #73 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2013, 01:07 PM
1Gary's Avatar
Registered User
 

Last journal entry: 383 dyno sym
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Roch,NY
Age: 67
Posts: 1,538
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 201
Thanked 156 Times in 142 Posts
The range of engines sold and built is from OEM's to hard core race engines and parts for the same are involved in my business.My roots started in the dyno room with various levels at the Chevy engine plant.That business from the track appearance followed us home to build some street cruisers as well some heavy hitter street cars.But enough about me.

Hehe,now you have a talent to look into a screen and actually know what's going on with me huh??. Well NOT!!

Your consistent in your advise.Should be accompanied with warning labels.Oddly enough your ego breezed over the logical reasons why I suggested what I did and all the things that didn't get checked.

To the O/P-Sir I know you didn't want the answer given from me.Ask any of the regular posters on here and I am pretty sure they will tell you that answers often will go beyond the original question and often not the answer the O/P seeks.And most certainly a difference between a hobbyist and a business for profit.No I am not offering you anything for sale other what time I can spare on here.As pure as it sounds I'm offering you help to pay it back to all those guys who helped me along the way.In terms of advise,one tip of course is the content,the number of posts the adviser has,which can be a good thing or bad,(prime example is someone who has 7,700 posts on one site and in about the same time has 12,000 posts on another site),doesn't leave much time to do all this alleged building engines.There,from me anyways,no intent to become a internet hero.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #74 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2013, 03:01 PM
painted jester's Avatar
TAKE A KID TO A CAR SHOW
 

Last journal entry: mopar hump back
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Michigan
Age: 68
Posts: 1,840
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 103
Thanked 292 Times in 240 Posts
By the way what distributer are you running? I must have read right by it LOL.

Jester
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #75 (permalink)  
Old 02-27-2013, 10:58 AM
hcompton's Avatar
Old & Furious
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: MD
Age: 41
Posts: 1,074
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 6
Thanked 87 Times in 84 Posts
WOW I am stunned by some of the comments about your build. Its not that far off from perfect certainly closer to the mark then all of our first builds. Feel good about your self and your project its just fine. The poor engine just needs some love. And in this case that love needs to be giving under the hood not on the internet.

I am not recommending you adjust your timing your self because i am unsure of the cars exhuast and engine noise and also you do not have some of the needed tools to get it right. Not that you can't do it. But if the engine was to knock badly after ajustments and you didnt hear it becasue of loud pipes or some other reason then you will break the pistons and cause massive damage. Sure its common for people to build there own engines and tune them. But its not always the best solution for every build. a build this close to the limit of detonation I my self my take it in for a dyno tune with wide band or egt. For the simple reason the EGT will let the dyno guy know its going to knock before it happens. With proper tuning a good tuner can tune all the ugly out of it and leave more hp on the table than simple driveway ear job.

FYI: Im sure this will cheese fbird off but really its the truth. Most cars burn way too much gas with locked out timing. a properly tuned car may pay for its dyno runs in fuel savings in just a few weeks of driving. Locked out dizzy is needed in some cases and you may need to do it. but this is not a first round tool its a last resort. Good first step if it was 20 years ago. Now we can tune an engine with proper tools for spark and fuel and get it dead on perfect.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to hcompton For This Useful Post:
1Gary (02-27-2013), 90caprice408 (02-27-2013)

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lazy Lifter Regal Beagle Engine 1 05-30-2008 12:18 AM
Lazy top end BMM Engine 13 04-13-2008 10:03 PM
Lazy engine n2oguy Engine 4 06-20-2006 04:17 PM
I'm lazy BillBlue Introduce Yourself 1 06-11-2004 03:56 PM
UPS is lazy 87442lover Hotrodders' Lounge 8 05-09-2004 08:05 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.