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  #121 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2013, 08:36 PM
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confused

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Originally Posted by Custom10 View Post
Not saying the motor cant be tuned or is not tuned, sure put it on a dyno and tune the snot out of it, till it makes 450HP but then put it in this car with this conv and gear combo,,,and it suddenly is lazy, that is what is happening here

Tuning is done last, you cant tune the lazy out of a 246 duration cam with a 3000 stall, 373 gears in a 4000 lb car can you?

maybe it pulls like hell after 3500 rpm, would not surprise me
Is the engine lazy or is the car not reacting properly? There is a difference,,,
An engine has an RPM range that is most efficient,based on tuning and tunerparts...lets say 4-7,000,rpm,from idle to 4,000 rpm the engine should accelerate normally and really get going when nearing peak torque.Below 4,000 rpm the engine needs not be "lazy"just not as impressive as when it gets into the power making region.
I drive standard with an engine that makes peak torque @4750,ish and makes peak HP @ 6500.
Off idle ,if I punch the throttle the car accelerate just fine and usuall breaks traction at 1700 rpm in first and 33 ish in second...no converter,,,no big gears, very big carb and cam,,relatively speaking.
explain the "lazy" I should have?

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  #122 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2013, 09:54 PM
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bird,I got no traction from the BFGs so I have new tires on my car.traction is good and corvettes hook quite well.My engine is not lazy,,,
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  #123 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2013, 11:17 PM
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Bfg

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Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 View Post
The BFG radials are useless for straight line traction. Might a well grease the tread.
those tires were junk for lateral traction as well
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  #124 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2013, 09:43 PM
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my KARMA ran over my DOGMA
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 View Post
you cant tune the lazy out of a 246 duration cam with a 3000 stall, 373 gears in a 4000 lb car can you?

Ya you can... 5 minutes spent to simply give the cammed up motor the timing it wants by simply locking out the advance curve will turn this into a whole different car. Any required tuning beyond this is minor and easy.

Even if a 5000 rpm race converter and a 5.13 gear was swapped in , it still needs this correction to the ignition timing.
It will be very responsive once set up right. It is dirt simple to lock out a HEI and install a simple ignition power
interupt switch. total cost about $15.

The root of the problem is the basic lack of enough timing at idle.

This is not a strip only set up. it will run very nice every day on the street with the locked out mechanical advacen combined with the right amount of custom dialed in vacuum advance, using ported vacuum.
It will be a whole different car.

Will pobabily now need a new set of fresh spark plugs too...
oh who is yada yada now lol The thing is desitine as is to crap the bed regardless of timing
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  #125 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2013, 09:56 PM
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Of course it's fast
 
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We can keep going over the fact that his combo sucks but he obviously doesn't want to fix it. I say we just drop it until he finds some sense and realizes he needs a motor with more torque instead of this high rpm thing he's built. Op, sell the cam and heads, get lower compression heads with a smaller cam and get some 3.73's out back. You're converter will be fine then so just leave it. That's the only way this car is going to perform the way you want it to. It's been said at least 20 times now. You can lock out the timing and buy all the fancy ignitions you want but the fact is that you have a bad combo and no amount of tuning is going to fix that. With the amount of money you just spent on the e-curve you could have bought a house brand cam from jegs and some large chamber heads off craigslist or a junkyard and had your car running right, but you chose the lazy route with the distributor which isn't going to get you anywhere.
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  #126 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2013, 10:00 PM
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my KARMA ran over my DOGMA
 

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I can only wish the OP is going to chime in, good points eveyone.
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  #127 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2013, 01:33 AM
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Vinnie Quote: "why would a lazy engine all of a sudden be not lazy in a different chassis? If the engine is tuned,its tuned,,,"

F-BIRD'88 Quote "Ya you can... 5 minutes spent to simply give the cammed up motor the timing it wants by simply locking out the advance curve will turn this into a whole different car. Any required tuning beyond this is minor and easy."

I agree with both of you

Lets get the Timing in and minor tune from there, it will run like a different car!!!! He has what he has and he's trying to get it dialed in LOL! I do admit he's a little slow responding with any progress in locking his total timing Either with plastic ties or the E curve dials LOL! I'm waiting for his input on the difference the timing makes and then moving on to the next step

Jester
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  #128 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2013, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by painted jester View Post
Vinnie Quote: "why would a lazy engine all of a sudden be not lazy in a different chassis? If the engine is tuned,its tuned,,,"

F-BIRD'88 Quote "Ya you can... 5 minutes spent to simply give the cammed up motor the timing it wants by simply locking out the advance curve will turn this into a whole different car. Any required tuning beyond this is minor and easy."

I agree with both of you

Lets get the Timing in and minor tune from there, it will run like a different car!!!! He has what he has and he's trying to get it dialed in LOL! I do admit he's a little slow responding with any progress in locking his total timing Either with plastic ties or the E curve dials LOL! I'm waiting for his input on the difference the timing makes and then moving on to the next step

Jester
My work schedule and cars location prevents me from being able to respond with quick results.....should have updates friday since I will have that day off.
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  #129 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2013, 12:06 PM
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(new tire diameter / old tire diameter) x old axle ratio = new axle ratio

So if your old tire is 27 inches tall and you go to 24 inches tall your final effective ratio will change to 4.20 to 1! Thats why at the track we take sets of different diameter tires and compounds for track conditions!!!

A simple change of shorter tires will change your effective gear ratio for testing your car!

Jester
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  #130 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2013, 04:14 PM
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To explain! After you get your timing set LOL

Changing tires is a good way to make minor changes to your vehicle's acceleration and top speed without having to resort to a gearing change in the differential. For instance, if you're drag racing and your engine hits its red-line before you hit the end of the drag-strip, you can install larger tires to lower the effective gear ratio. The opposite also holds true. If, at the end of the drag strip, your tachometer reads 1,000 RPM below the engine's peak power RPM then you can see some serious gains in acceleration by simply switching to a smaller tire.

Jester
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  #131 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2013, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by painted jester View Post
To explain! After you get your timing set LOL

Changing tires is a good way to make minor changes to your vehicle's acceleration and top speed without having to resort to a gearing change in the differential. For instance, if you're drag racing and your engine hits its red-line before you hit the end of the drag-strip, you can install larger tires to lower the effective gear ratio. The opposite also holds true. If, at the end of the drag strip, your tachometer reads 1,000 RPM below the engine's peak power RPM then you can see some serious gains in acceleration by simply switching to a smaller tire.

Jester
i kinda figured thats where you were going with that one
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  #132 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2013, 05:17 PM
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To lock out the 'E', if (I remember right) set the switches to the "Q" setting. Switch 1 at 1, switch 2 at 7. This would give you 20 degrees of retard below 500rpm for starting. Check timing at idle should be around 36 or 38 BTDC.

So at idle with a timing light on it it should be at about 36* btdc on the timing tape with vacuum advance disconnected.

Jester

Last edited by painted jester; 03-16-2013 at 05:31 PM.
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  #133 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2013, 05:55 PM
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very lazy 400

Descent parts choice, lets get to the basics. 1) what is the timing curve?, Total advance curve should be 22 to 28 degree's with the right weight's. That way it will start easy @ 8 to 10 Degree's initial timing that will give you 38 degree's total. Never lock out dist. unless you have computer control or a timing retard for start up. Vac advance for street Mech advance for strip some street total advance 36 to 38 degrees with premium pump gas or 110. With vac advance it will make it very peppy on the street at part throttle. All mech. advance should be in by 1500 RPM. Hope this help's
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  #134 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2013, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 View Post
This will not work on this motor with a auto trans. The result is a very unstable idle (as the light tension fast advance rate allows the timing to jump around at idle)
and not enough timing at idle. The motor has a crappy idle, tends to load up, and has poor throttle response.
The timing tends to jump around as rpm and manifold vacuum jump around.

The cam in this motor wants full timing right at idle 36deg BTDC.
Therefore the locked timing works best.
All you need is a ignition power interrupt switch to allow easy hot engine
restart. It is just that easy.

This is not a strip only setup. With this cam or others like it or larger
this is what works the best on the street. (auto transmission)

Then

If you have vacuum advance use the ported vacuum source for this setup.
Get a adjustable vac advance pot and limit it to 10-12deg max.
Adjust the rate and amount of added vacuum advance by drive testing at hiway cruise speeds. You do not want it all pegged in at idle. Use the ported vacuum source.
It is for part throttle light load cruising/driving.
This is what works the best on a street car with a cam this big and a auto transmission.

This is what the motor needs and this works 100% better than what you suggested, which is for a manual transmission car.

not that hard...
I got the timing locked out and I installed a pcv but now the car is dying as soon as I put it in gear and I think I will set the distributor up to give me around 10 degrees of vacuum advance
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  #135 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2013, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 View Post
check the cap and rotor and wires install. There is a outside change there is a problem with this
distributor..
Do a simple cylindr balance test to detect misfireing-weak cylinders, using a tach and or vacuum gauge.

You should have just locked out the HEI distributor you already had.

If you cannot trace the problem reinstall the old distributor and lock it out.

Further these e curve distributors do not advance the timing. They only work by more or less retard
from the base line setting.

Verify the actual timing at idle in gear and the timing at full advance and the accumulated total timing when vacuum advance is active. Using a timing light.

You want 36deg BTDC steady at idle in gear....36deg steady at idle in neutral.
36deg at high rpm WOT . No vacuum advance....

and +10deg of added vacuum advance when vacuum advance is active and high manifold vacuum is applied.

The start retard also accumulative. So must be accounted for in the base line distributor timing setup.

Remember this E curve distributor never actually "advances the timing" it all works by taking away timing from the base setup.

in various amount depending on the switches set up.

Use a timing light to verify each timing curve mode idle......idle in gear......... WOT max advance........and part throttle applyed vacuum advance.

The base line setup has to be readjusted depending on which amount of start retard you give it.

Like I said can be a bit pesky to get it set up right.

The idle timing must not drop when in gear or the motor will stall.

The carbs throttles pri and sec must be in the correct position (idle fuel transfer slot exposure) at idle.
Or the idle fuel curve is funky. A blown leaky power valve or a power valve that is opening at idle in gear
when manifold vacuum is lowest will mess up the idle too.
If the plugs are black fouled, replace.

These e curve distributors are more trouble than they are worth on a motor like yours with this cam as the
motor needs full locked out timing at idle any way.

Are you using this distributor "stand alone" or running it thru a CD ignition box ( MSD 6 etc)?
I'm using just the distributor....im goin to put fresh plugs in it my next day off i've been using the autolite 3923 are those good plugs for this application?
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