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Old 09-16-2009, 01:13 PM
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Vintage Air bi level heater

I pulled the Vintage Air a/c out of my car for many reasons - but primarily because of too much underhood/dash claptrap for an 'A' making it extremely difficult to work on, and secondarily - it's a roadster . Instead of the a/c I've installed a Vintage Air Bi-Level 50516-VUZ heater just to keep the LL's hands warm. It was a very easy installation with only a couple of wiring terminations besides the ground. Vintage does a complete wire preassembly to the relays and to the fan plugs.

I do have a concern and have discussed it with Vintage and they 'swear' that I've installed it just fine!!

There is a solenoid operated water valve that picks up with the ignition turns on and they tell me that it's because it's a NC relay under power and that until I actually turn on the heat, it will stay that way then open. That solenoid gets HOT!! It does not make sense to me to operate this way, that it should be closed, until I turn the switch and tell the system I want heat. I've installed a toggle switch to cut the power to that solenoid - I DO NOT like something that hot in a confined space unless there is water flowing through it to maintain some temperature control - and yes, there is water in the system, but haven't put the antifreeze back until I do my final hose checks (I learned my lesson last fall with a BIG puddle - but it's in a heated area now).

I need some thoughts on this before I contact Vintage again.

Dave W

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Old 09-17-2009, 05:47 AM
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It looks like I finally stumped the electrical "experts"

(Dang - I wish Doc was still with us!!)

Dave W
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Old 09-17-2009, 07:50 AM
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Dave in the electrical world we refer to a relays condition as "shelf condition", (de-energized) as in no power applied. So are you telling us that the relay when powered up contacts are closed sending current to the solenoid? Is that actually a servo driven water valve, like the Gen II system?

Edit update: I'm looking at the wiring diagram, will get back to you.

Vince
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Old 09-17-2009, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 302 Z28
Dave in the electrical world we refer to a relays condition as "shelf condition", (de-energized) as in no power applied. So are you telling us that the relay when powered up contacts are closed sending current to the solenoid? Is that actually a servo driven water valve, like the Gen II system?

Edit update: I'm looking at the wiring diagram, will get back to you.

Vince
Yeah Vince - it is exactly like the GEN II MINI a/c that I had on the car originally.

I'm on my way to the NSRA Burlington show, (sans car) so may be spotty in response as we will be in our camper with a weak WiFi when not at the show.

Dave W
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Old 09-17-2009, 08:47 AM
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I just looked at the wiring diagram and the hot water valve is NOT a servo driven feedback valve, it's just on-off.

The way I understand the operation is such:

ign key off: power relay is not energized, high blower relay is not energized, no power to hot water valve (hot water valve is open....right?).

Ign key on: power relay is now hot which also sends voltage to the fan switch. I do not know the configuration of the fan switch, is the "C" terminal hot even when the fan switch is in the off position? If it is then that will energize the high blower relay (opening it's N/C contacts) which will de-energize the hot water valve opening it.

If that is right, then the hot water valve is obviously a spring loaded valve that remains open until 12 volts is applied.

That means the valve is closed (energized) at all times and only moves to the de-energized position (open) when heat is called for.

I have no idea why Vintage Air chose to use a normally open hot water valve Still looking.......stay tuned.

Vince
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Old 09-18-2009, 06:57 AM
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Wow Dave, you took out the whole system? I knew you didn't care for it much. Might fit in my '33, theres a lot of room under the dash.
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Old 09-18-2009, 02:55 PM
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HEY DAVE & VINCE (STRANGE HEATER CONTROL VALVE)

Hey Ya'll, I took a look at this setup and it is a bit strange. I took a look at the Vintage Air website downloads, this is what I came up with.
1) They don't list a 50516-VUZ heater. They do have a 50616-VUZ heater.
2) The wiring diagrams for the 50616 are a bit misleading because they are calling the (heater control valve relay) a (high blower relay).
3) If this is the correct diagram, the forementioned relay is a heater control valve relay(it has nothing to do with blower speed).
4) The heater control valve is normally open(shelf position)
5) When you turn on the heater switch(any speed) the C contact is energized which in turn energizes the heater control valve relay which opens its normally closed contacts. This de-energizes the valve which opens it and allows hot water to flow.
6) The only reason I could think of for using a normally open valve is to provide fail safe operation of the heater and defroster in the event of an electrical circuit failure.(You wouldn't have the blower,but you would have heat in the heater core)
7) If the heater control valve coil getting hot bothers you, it can be replaced with a normally closed valve and move the wire thats currently on terminal 87A(NC) to terminal 87(NO)(on the HCV relay or HB relay as they call it) this way the valve will only be energized when you turn the heater on.

If you have questions let me know. olnolan
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Old 09-18-2009, 03:32 PM
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olnolan, You are correct, and I came to the same conclusion about doing a little rewire and a different control valve. Problem is I don't think Vintage Air has any different. You would probably have to go to a Ford dealership and look at their hot water valves. I know some earlier 80ish Fords had a hot water valve.

Vince
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Old 09-18-2009, 06:42 PM
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I think a simple manual ball valve might take care of the problem. After all, up here in the Northeast, once you need heat, you need it for about 8 months straight and about 5 of those are not hot rod friendly anyway.

Weren't you planning on moving south Dave? You might want to hang on to the A/C unit
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Old 09-18-2009, 07:52 PM
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Dave must not be able to find a WIFI, just pull into a Starbucks.

Vince
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Old 09-19-2009, 04:43 PM
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Maybe, Just maybe the WiFi here will not crash for once. I tried for 2 hours to get on last evening and every time I was able to raise this forum - crash, then reboot to their system. Starbucks (or similar) - where we are in the Adirondacks the closest is 12 miles to the ferry across Lake Champlain, then 25-30 miles to Burlington .

Now with that said, thanks for the replies, Vince and OLNOLAN. It looks like what you have done is confirm my suspicions about the, IMHO, 'backasswards' way the Vintage Air decided to "engineer" the wiring for the heater. Not sure how I'm going to correct it but both Vince and George(Arrowhead) have good ideas - an NC or a ball valve would do the cure. My current fix of a toggle switch is only a temporary as it only masks the problem.

George - I may decide to sell the removed a/c - but who knows. VA may get hot enough to reinstall - but I really doubt it.

Dave W
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Old 09-19-2009, 08:40 PM
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I got to thinking about that normally open hot water valve. Back when I was working at the local Ford dealership I remember tons of problems with stuck heater control valves. I think they were normally closed valves that only got cycled about three months out of the year, and as such were stuck shut when heat was called for. That could be the reason for the normally open valve.

Vince
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Old 09-20-2009, 07:45 AM
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Basakwards Valve

Dave and Vince, Just wanted to add food for thought. Vince could be right on the theory that regular cycling of the valve may keep it functioning properly. On the other hand, they could have bought a large lot of these valves, not realizing they were N.O. and figured out a way to use them. In regards to the coils getting hot, I use N.O. solenoid valves on freeze protection systems to provide fail safe operation in the event of a power failure during freezing conditions. Point here is, the solenoid coils stay energized continually for all but about 10-20 days a year that we actually see freezing conditions. The coils do stay hot, but I haven't experienced any failures. If you would prefer the N.C. solenoid valve setup, Vintage appears to have a N.C. valve on their Universal Gen 4 671400 kits, although I'm not sure its 12 volt. To easily find 12 vdc valves, look on e-bay, they have dozens priced from $14.00 and up.olnolan
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Old 09-20-2009, 04:24 PM
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I tried to respond this morning - but of course I got 'bombed out'

I can't have that much heat coming from an electrical device under the dash - so it has to be either the NO or a ball valve as suggested by Arrowhead - and not my toggle switch. It has to be done soon as I'm buttoning up the rest of the car including installing the cowl cover and the rest of the upholstery.

I'll let you know what I do shortly.

Dave W
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Old 09-21-2009, 03:53 PM
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After over an hour on evilBay, I've found what might be the NC valve that I can use.

This is the valve:http://cgi.ebay.com/Electric-Solenoi...4.c0.m14.l1262

Any comments?

The temp range seems a little lower then I would normally like but 195* should work. It already has the needed 5/8" inlet fittings and the innards seem to be of decent quality materials. Of course the inlet filter needs to come out - If, hopefully, it can be reached with some sort of tool!!

Dave W
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