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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2009, 03:18 AM
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This has all been a long time comming (the economic state of the us) everything from people abusing the welfair system and getting the 'free' money the workers taxes go to pay for, gready unions DEMANDING a high wage for the time/job base pay and the whole free market econ that allows the outsorcing to go on without any negitive side effects visible to the greedy SOB making 6, 7 or 8 figgures a year. Nothing is going to change, as Americans we want to be paid a high wage and pay as little as possible for everything in life that we buy and somehow expect that bottom doller purchace we constantly make to keep us and the guy next door working...WRONG.

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2009, 10:43 AM
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You are right let's get rid of those damned unions and go back to the old system where the big tushhogs of business owned entire towns, made fortunes, treated their employees like dirt and literally starved them! Can't happen that way now you say? Take away the unions and the fear of the unions from most big companies and just see what happens. Our Government will force them to pay a minimum wage? You bet they will and THAT'S what they will pay, can you make a good living on the minimum wage? Seems like every time economic problems come up someone wants to blame the unions who have done more to raise the standard of living in this country than anything else. Just like every other organization, including some of which are government controlled, some unions have had their share of legal problems but don't blame them for the economic problem the country faces today, we as consumers who INSIST on buying those cheap imports are to blame! Maybe you are right those damned unions should all be forced to close and let the American companies lower the wages and working conditions closer to our Chinese competitors and then maybe we can compete with them.



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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2009, 11:06 AM
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I watched a program this morning on Discovery channel about Chinese factories......Now, I don't know if they are showing best, worst or average....but I figure they are showcasing these factories....Working conditions looked good, but..........The whole area is owned by the company, with dorms, cafeterias, rec areas, the whole works........Mostly showed just young people working there......Might be fine for some, not this guy.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2009, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
You are right let's get rid of those damned unions and go back to the old system where the big tushhogs of business owned entire towns, made fortunes, treated their employees like dirt and literally starved them! Can't happen that way now you say? Take away the unions and the fear of the unions from most big companies and just see what happens. Our Government will force them to pay a minimum wage? You bet they will and THAT'S what they will pay, can you make a good living on the minimum wage? Seems like every time economic problems come up someone wants to blame the unions who have done more to raise the standard of living in this country than anything else. Just like every other organization, including some of which are government controlled, some unions have had their share of legal problems but don't blame them for the economic problem the country faces today, we as consumers who INSIST on buying those cheap imports are to blame! Maybe you are right those damned unions should all be forced to close and let the American companies lower the wages and working conditions closer to our Chinese competitors and then maybe we can compete with them.



United we stand, divided we beg
You know what Red, you are right on the money. I too have blamed the overpaid union worker. And I DO believe they are overpaid. For someone to walk into NUMMI and bolt on a tail light all day their first day making $25 an hour is nuts.

HOWEVER, the cheap ars consumer who is willing to pay for the prostituted Chinese made product carries the most blame.

But it goes much deeper than that, it is much more complicated than that. MY government allowing the ships full of products made over seas to unload on our shores is the first to blame. Second is the company who could walk thru their factory here in America looking at all those Americans feeding their family and walk into a board room to say they are going to go overseas should be ashamed of themselves!

If this were during hard times, if this were during the depression or during WWII or closely following these events the American public would protest that company and boycott them. They wouldn't sell a single pair of those Chinese Vicegrips.

But not in our screwed up bizzarro world here in selfish America.

Brian
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Old 10-17-2009, 12:00 PM
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Unfortunately the Chinese will soon be making superior stuff to anything we produce. Look at what the Japanese did. The Chinese have figured out that Capitalism is a pretty good system and are headed that direction quickly. As you know we in America are in a head-long, terminal velocity dive into Socialism so there is no way in the world we can compete with the new emerging capitalists. Saving grace will be that they will eventually want everything for everyone and adopt our over-priced unions, SSI, free health care, free housing, etc., and will make us competitive again. Unfortunately that conversion will take about 50 years (see Japanese economy) and we will be pretty third-worldly by then.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2009, 01:39 PM
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Willys I wish I could argue with you but unfortunately I see the same thing coming and the sad part is it's our own faults. Too many people in this country want everything for nothing and they fail to understand even the basic laws of economics, at a meeting here recently it was absolutely astonishing the number of people who thought that the health care debate was about giving everyone free health insurance! Some of these people actually think that the government in power right now is trying to stand up for us and give us a FREE ride on health care while other politicians (who are tied up with the insurance companies of course ) are standing in the way! Don't these people ever listen to the news or read a paper? If it was just a few I could understand but there are a bunch of them that don't have a clue as to what it's all about, when it was argued that the federal deficit was going out of control one guy started shouting that the government will not go broke they are printing money every day!

I just don't see any hope
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2009, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
You are right let's get rid of those damned unions and go back to the old system where the big tushhogs of business owned entire towns, made fortunes, treated their employees like dirt and literally starved them! Can't happen that way now you say? Take away the unions and the fear of the unions from most big companies and just see what happens. Our Government will force them to pay a minimum wage? You bet they will and THAT'S what they will pay, can you make a good living on the minimum wage? Seems like every time economic problems come up someone wants to blame the unions who have done more to raise the standard of living in this country than anything else. Just like every other organization, including some of which are government controlled, some unions have had their share of legal problems but don't blame them for the economic problem the country faces today, we as consumers who INSIST on buying those cheap imports are to blame! Maybe you are right those damned unions should all be forced to close and let the American companies lower the wages and working conditions closer to our Chinese competitors and then maybe we can compete with them.



United we stand, divided we beg
Red you bring up a valid point... Unions USE to be an amazing thing, fighting for the average Joe to get paid a DECENT wage fighting for an option of health car/bennie package to improve the quality of life. back then (ford days) Unions were a huge factor, no, the Primary factor that got the standard of living up for Americans. Then just like basic human instinct, they got every thing (or compromised) they wanted, and then wanted more, and more and more... like MartinSr said, 25 an hour for screwing in tail lights is obserd, the 18 an hour my last job (union foundry) started me at was waaaayyyy over what I was accualy EARNING at the skill level I had.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
Willys I wish I could argue with you but unfortunately I see the same thing coming and the sad part is it's our own faults. Too many people in this country want everything for nothing and they fail to understand even the basic laws of economics, at a meeting here recently it was absolutely astonishing the number of people who thought that the health care debate was about giving everyone free health insurance! Some of these people actually think that the government in power right now is trying to stand up for us and give us a FREE ride on health care while other politicians (who are tied up with the insurance companies of course ) are standing in the way! Don't these people ever listen to the news or read a paper? If it was just a few I could understand but there are a bunch of them that don't have a clue as to what it's all about, when it was argued that the federal deficit was going out of control one guy started shouting that the government will not go broke they are printing money every day!

I just don't see any hope
yes, the general american public as a whole is uneducated and beleves every thing they hear on the extream liberal or concervitive afternoon talk show they listen to religiously...he** why pick up a news papper or research the actual facts before making a decision when someone else will do it for you?
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 10-22-2009, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by MARTINSR
HOWEVER, the cheap ars consumer who is willing to pay for the prostituted Chinese made product carries the most blame.
This is the most frustrating thing of ALL, being, do we even have a f'ing choice anymore? The current trend of outsourcing will soon leave us with NOTHING but the import junk. I do not want to 'wait for the chinese' to catch up to Americas quality.

Where is our voice to actively, deliberately, directly do something about this? Do not say 'vote'. Do not say 'write to your congressman'.

It's a civil war of white collar vs. blue collar.

Vise Grip will never be the same and will never come back to the states. Same goes for many other brands that meant anything.

Check this out, in my most recent Vise Grip purchase (Petersen) the warranty card says FULL LIFETIME WARRANTY. So now IF they should fail, I get to "maybe" trade them in on a brand spankin' new pair made in china. Gee... Thanks.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 10-22-2009, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C-10

It's a civil war of white collar vs. blue collar.
Poor analogy. I am not anti union and for sure not pro Chinese or for sourcing off shore but this is the kind of statement and rhetoric that the union leaders tend to push off on their 'constituents'. Believe me, union leaders are not stupid(they usually have significant perks well above a member's)

They seem to conveniently 'forget':
- Who did the company start up financially
- Who did the design on a product
- Who purchased the machines to make that product
- Who did the marketing of that product
- Who did the customer service for handling questions about that product
- Who did the warranty
- Who was responsible for paying the higher and higher salaries demanded by union leaders
- Who was responsible for the benefits demanded by union leaders (simple things like Social Security, medical, vacations, 401(k), pensions just to name a few).

To sum up the above points, every one of them costs a significant amount of money. This money has cost competitiveness in the world market. I hear most of you say that for sure you would buy only a US made $10 Vise-Grip or a $15 Snap-on wrench. That's fine, now multiply that by everything you need for your tool box or in your home. Buying American is the best, but it has gotten too expensive. It's called a cost-price spiral. A company needs to make a certain level of profit to stay in business. If the costs of staying in business exceed the combined prices of ALL the goods sold by a company in this market, you are out of business. These profits aren't just to satisfy the stock holders - you need a positive bottom line to borrow money to keep an inflow of raw materials. If you have a poor credit rating, guess what, the price(interest) you pay for that money will exceed.....oh crap, you know the rest of the story

....and yes, I'm the benefactor of those demands as well and yes, I was a union, blue collar worker, but didn't retire that way. I have a pension, a 401(k) and all the rest. Union negotiations helped me even after I 'graduated' to a white collar

Now, before you all flame me, think hard about those points I brought up.

Thanks for listening (there is more, but I CAN get boring) and fooling around with my '31 is much more fun.

Dave W
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 10-22-2009, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C-10
It's a civil war of white collar vs. blue collar.
Just so everyone is clear where I am coming from. I was blue collar. I worked as a mechanic for Ford, K-Mart, Sears, and Midas. My wife of 29 years (now) and I put me through college eighteen years ago while I was working at my last mechanics job (Midas). I am now white collar. I manage a small group of young engineers in a fabricated metal business. So I can see both sides here.

And I will tell you that if we all take this attitude held by C-10, we might as well stick a fork in America cause it's done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C-10
This is the most frustrating thing of ALL, being, do we even have a f'ing choice anymore? The current trend of outsourcing will soon leave us with NOTHING but the import junk. I do not want to 'wait for the Chinese' to catch up to Americas quality.

Where is our voice to actively, deliberately, directly do something about this? Do not say 'vote'. Do not say 'write to your congressman'.

Vise Grip will never be the same and will never come back to the states. Same goes for many other brands that meant anything.
You don't have to wait. I was in China earlier this year. I saw up close the GM cars made in China by Chinese workers and owned by Chinese workers. The quality is as good as or better than the US made cars. I have been in manufacturing plants over there and they are as good as or better than similar US plants.
If we keep whining and playing the class war games, the people , both inside and outside our borders, who hate our country win.
If you want to do something, go to FairTax.org. Educate yourself on a plan which will work and which may be our only hope. Don't say that it can't happen, say that you can make it happen. Then tell your friends and family and anyone else who will listen. We can make a change in 2010.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 10-22-2009, 08:46 AM
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Then tell your friends and family and anyone else who will listen. We can make a change in 2010.
Isn't that what we did in 2009?

Vince
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 10-22-2009, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by 302 Z28
Isn't that what we did in 2009?

Vince
Anyone notice the big change? Sure, everything is different.

Brian
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 10-22-2009, 09:39 AM
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I will admit I have not taken the time to read all of the info on fairtax.org, when I have time I will. What I have read, it seems everyone would be paying less taxes but tax revenue would increase.

It is interesting how so many expect the last two decades problems to be fixed in nine months, it can't be done in four years.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 10-22-2009, 10:51 AM
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Back on subject. Since I first saw this thread I have been making an effort to buy up the USA manufactured Vise-Grip pliers that I can find. Here is what I'm finding. You can still find USA manufactured Vise-Grip's in the stores, but you have to look closely for them. I have found some Vise-Grip's labeled Made In USA, but in very small letters it says "of global components". They are mixed in with the Vise-Grip's that are Made in China and some that are totally made in USA. At our local Lowes I found several USA manufactured that I bought, but I also noticed the same model number of China manufactured, but at a lower price than the USA ones. So Vise-Grip may not be charging USA prices for China made. This may explain why I still find some USA made Vise-Grip's on the shelves. Some people are just looking at the price.

I haven't had much luck finding used Vise-Grip's at flea markets, I guess the word has been out for a while and people have snatched them all up.

Vince
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 10-22-2009, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gun4hire
You can blame the US consumer for getting us here, but its foreign consumers who now have money that will keep us here. The US market is no longer where the MAIN money is...its just one of many.

That's not at all true, the United States is still by far and away the largest GDP in the world at 14 trillion, the next country on the list is Japan at just shy of 5. Its not even close, the entire world still looks to the states to set demand and as the largest market for almost all types of consumer goods.

The problem is we do not demand quality. You'll notice if you spend some time in Europe. Their cars are better built, their food is fresher, their clothes are of higher quality and made domestically and on top of that they have great quality of life. Its part of their culture, they refuse to spend money on garbage. IN the states, we'll buy just about anything. We can all say on this forum that we're angry about crappy quality, but low price is what sells here. Walmart is proof of that, its the world's largest building and it is absolutely FILLED with wall to wall GARBAGE.

K
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