WATCH OUT buying cheap tools! - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Garage - Tools
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2013, 08:13 AM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,171
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,317
Thanked 1,161 Times in 1,024 Posts
WATCH OUT buying cheap tools!

Back a number of years ago I wrote the "Basics of tool buying" at the bottom of this post. I still believe in everything I wrote there.

I will still go into Harbor Freight once in a while and pick up something. But as I said in the "Basics" you really need to know what to buy there, there are a lot of great values there, but also a lot of JUNK. I had a killer coupon so I went to get a few cheap tools for even cheaper! WHOOO HOOOO, problem is, if they were FREE they would be a dangerous rip off!

I bought a hose set for my torch, now come on now, a frigging hose for a gas and oxygen to flow thru, it's pretty easy to pull off, I made my own for my little jewelers torch it's really not that hard. Oh but it is apparently.



I have installed too many hoses on to regulators to even think about it, oxygen acetylene torches, migs, been doing it for 40 years never did this before! Just simply tightening the hose on the reg it broke! It hit me hard at that point, this is something flammable gas flows thru, I think I will spring for a quality hose so I don't kill my family.

While I was at the REAL hardware store in town (as opposed to a "McHome" store) I got my Forney hose quality made in America I also got a pair of MIG pliers to replace the junk ones I bought at HF. Now mind you, they are made in China too, but it isn't like they can't make something of quality in China (half the parts for your new Chevy come from there) but if they don't have the standards set high you get HF. Check out how much bigger the tips on the HF ones were! They wouldn't even fit in the nozzle of my MIG to do what they were "designed" to do!





And what made me even look into this? Well when I tried to cut the mig wire with the HF tool and it couldn't cut the wire! NO KIDDING, it couldn't cut the wire! Yep, I think it's time I re-read the basics of buying tools myself.

Brian

"Basics of tool buying".

The subject of tool buying comes up often, there are many tools we NEED and thousands of tools we want. The following is more of an editorial than one of my “Basics of Basics” which is largely factual based, this is my opinion that is basted on experiences I have had. Only you can decide what to buy and how much money to spend buying it. What tools each of us “need” is going to vary quite a bit. A tool I have found to be the cats meow and can’t live with out, could possibly gather dust in your tool box. If there is one thing that I have learned as a hobbyist and a pro doing body work 40 hours a week is that I am never sorry that I bought a tool. If I only use it one time a year, I am glad I have it. What tools you could have sitting around to only use once a year is going to be different for all of us. One guy may feel his twenty dollars in sanding blocks is as far as he would go. While another guy would have $3500.00 Mill in his garage to save fifty dollars a year in machining costs (it is more likely he simply MUST be in “control”). This is something only you can decide how far do you want to go. I can say this, having the proper tool can make a difference in how long it takes to being able to do the project at all. I have found that many tools I have bought for a particular use have ended up being a far more useful tool than first thought. And some I thought would be very useful have been more limited. The one thing I have found is if you buy a good quality tool and find you don’t need it, it is worth darn near what you paid for it and can recoup your money if you decide sell it.

Quality tools truly are an investment, I have bought and sold (I have sold VERY FEW of my tools) for much more than they cost when new. A cheap tool, is worthless used, totally worthless. So you are not “saving money” buying cheap tools. Cheap tools make your work harder, you can damage yourself of your project. The cheap tool can take learning MUCH harder. In fact, it can make it impossible. If you can not afford the better tool, barrow it. I have been amazed at what is available to rent. I have a tool rental shop near me that has everything from slide hammers, MIG welders to dump trucks. You may find that after you have borrowed it, you will find a way to afford it. As a pro working with a shop full of other pros, if I have to borrow a tool more than twice, I buy it, period. In your home workshop, you may want to make up a rule such as this to help you choose what to buy and not buy.

Learn as much as you can about what tools are available for the particular things you are doing. You can’t make an educated decision on what to buy, borrow or rent if you don’t know what tools exist.

Quality VS cost:

There are three basic levels of cost and quality when you look at tools. The best, most expensive are found on the “Tool truck” here you will find tools that are darn near works of art. A 12 piece combination wrench set is about $200.00. The second step in quality and cost is your major department stores and REAL auto parts stores (like NAPA, they have a very good quality product). Sears offers a good tool in their Craftsmen line. Here you will find that 12 piece combination wrench set for about $75.00. Then there is the last, lowest junk you can buy, places like Harbor Freight with shelves covered with products made in China. That set of 12 combination wrenches will be as low as six or seven dollars! These tools should be avoided at all costs!! This is extremely general but it is a good guide line to use.

For the home hobbyist to spend $65.00 for a ratchet on the Snap On truck like I do would be ridiculous. But if you go to middle cost and quality like at Sears or Lowes (Lowes Kobalt wrenches are made by Williams tools a division of Snap On) you will get darn near as good a quality (just not the artistic quality) as the Tool trucks. There are many specialty tools that can only be found on the tool trucks or similar outlets.

A good rule of thumb is if the tool costs only a fraction of the cost for a top quality one, how could it possibly be very good? A real Roper Whitney metal punch like I use is about $135.00. The cheap copy available at the cheapie tools store are about $25.00, how could it do even a similar job? If you are looking at a tool and there are a number of brands that are similarly priced, then you are talking apples and apples. Say a 4” electric grinder. Something like a DeWalt is going to cost you around $100.00. There are a number of brands like Makita., Milwaukee all around $100.00. That $29.00 one at the cheapie tool store is JUNK.

My personal experience has found that how long a tool will last is only a small part of it. Common sense will tell you that as pro I need high quality tools so they last the many times I will use them over the coming years. As a home hobbyist you only need to use them a very small amount compared so why spend the extra money. I have found that most of those cheap tools that sell for 20% of the quality ones do not perform the task even one time properly. The punch I mentioned will damage the metal more than it will punch the hole! If the tool doesn’t even do the job you bought it for, it really doesn’t matter how few times you use it, you got hosed. Now, what do you do with it? Throw it in the trash that’s what. If you are going to buy those super cheapie “Dollar bin” tools, instead spend the $25.00 on a nice Stevie Ray Vaughn double CD. At least you will have some cool tunes to listen to while you spend all that time in the garage.

My employer pays me a lot of money to do my job, I have to be able to do it as fast or faster than the industry standard or I am out of a job. I also need tools that help me do it with the least amount of effort to save wear and tear on my body. Plus, I need to last a long time with a high amount of use. Good quality tools help me do this.

So what do these issues have to do with the home hobbyist?

First off, that garage time is very valuable. You are making a living everyday at your job and then you want to come home and relax and get some hobby time. You need tools that will help you get the most done in the least amount of time. It makes no sense to spend two hours of your valuable time doing something that could have taken 30 minutes with the correct tool. It even makes less sense when you think that most operations are done many, many times one each car. Then to add to that the fact that this is probably not going to be the only car you ever restore. Your time to you is as valuable as my time is to my employer.

You also need a tool that does the job easily. Again, it goes back to time spent plus the fact that you may just be learning this art of auto body and paint. It is like learning to play a piano with some kids toy. You just can’t imagine the difference a tool can make. For instance I recently bought a set of three “panel poppers” off the Snap On truck. These are the screw driver looking tools with the fork at the end to get under the clips that hold on door panels (as an example). This set of three cost $65.00! But, I am so thrilled with them I have “sold” another three sets for the Snap On man. They are so superior, my old ones (also Snap On) have been moved to my “seldom used” drawer. I spent $125.00 for a spring hose clamp remover, I can’t see how I lived without it. Why fight with things, it is hard enough to learn this art. Plus you can get hurt using those cheap tools.

How about how long it will last? As I said, these tools are an investment. I have bought used hammers and dollies on eBay for $35.00 dollars or more. What do you think you would get for one of those $20.00 hammer and dolly sets if it were used? Listen, I bought one myself for my first tools. I ended up using the last unbroken hammer to close paint cans and it BROKE the head!! LOL. You know as well as I do, you are hooked on cars. You will be building or co-building cars for the rest of your life, why not just buy the good tools now. I have Snap On tools that I bought 25 years ago, unless I loose them I will hand them down to my kids.

I do the same thing with other non-auto tools. My gardening tools for instance are all pro quality, and those that were not have long broken and been replaced with high quality ones. My time (read that my LIFE) is much more important than saving twelve and a half bucks when I buy a tool. The other day I was doing a carpentry job with my brother and a cousin who is about to retire (next month). I learned so much working with him. We started the project and I walked in with my $15.00 claw hammer. He laughed at me and said that it was for a woman to hang pictures on the wall. LOL I used his pro hammer that costs about $30.00, what a difference! I could drive three times the nails in a day with that hammer. All I could think of is all the nails I had driven with the piece of crap, working my butt off, all over a lousy $15.00 savings.

There are exceptions to the rule, I have a $99.00 Astro Portapower I bought 20 years ago that I still use every day. I’d bet you a dollar, if it were the “shop” tool, it would be tossed in the trash in a month. There is NO way it would hold up. It is more like my last few experiments where I bought a cheapie Vice grip. Those things are expensive right, the little ones I like to use hanging quarter panels are about $11.00 each, and when you have twenty or thirty of them that adds up big time. Well I picked up a couple for two dollars a piece at Harbor Freight. They didn’t even hold their own weight clamped on the panel! I tossed them in the garbage. I needed some large impact sockets. I shopped and shopped, and no Tool truck was stopping by the shop so I broke down and bought them at, you guessed it, Harbor Freight. There was one warning they forgot to add along with the “WARNING WEAR SAFETY GOGGLES”, they should have put “WARNING DO NOT HOOK AN AIR HOSE UP TO THE AIR TOOL YOU ARE USING THESE SOCKETS ON”. I broke three sockets the first or second time I used them. I broke down and spent $200.00 on a 26 piece set of S&K, they WILL last me the rest of my life.
I do have to say, the miniature windmill, trailer dolly and the little rechargeable airplane I bought at Harbor Freight are TOP NOTCH. My little boy and I have had a ball with the airplane.

These are simply my person opinions and experiences. Shop around and before you spend your hard earned cash, think about it.

By brother has a very profound saying, “I have never said, damn I wish I would have bought the cheap tool”.

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2013, 08:35 AM
454 Rattler's Avatar
NEVER SATISFIED !!
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Eagle River WI.
Age: 70
Posts: 897
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 5
Thanked 34 Times in 33 Posts
I've always questioned those people that complain about stuff from China. And yet, they are the first ones in line at HF. Makes no sense.

Like you stated, know what you're buying. Do a little research before you slap down your cash .


454 RATTLER
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2013, 08:37 AM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,171
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,317
Thanked 1,161 Times in 1,024 Posts
I try my best to buy stuff made here, but when it's twice as much and the pliers were made here anyway.......but yes, I try my hardest. It is getting harder and harder to do it!

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2013, 08:41 AM
put up or shut up
 

Last journal entry: saying goodbye to the beast
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Antelope, Ca
Posts: 2,063
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 574
Thanked 231 Times in 210 Posts
HF air couplers is a big NO-NO. Two years ago our shop bought a bunch of them from HF. You'd think we'd be set for a long time but all it did was cause grief and annoyance. Seemed like every other week they'd hiss or you'd have to stick a screwdriver in it to stop the hissing. Just annoying as all hell to be working next to a leaking coupler. So we tell them to get Milton and they go get these quick connect ones that don't leak but don't fit well. Man, just go get the darn Milton ones and be done with it!!!

Some good HF tools are the good goggles and gloves I get from there. $4 for a pair of gloves that are much better than the name brand ones that cost $15. The goggles are only $7. They'd be $20 for a name brand. So with that said, choose wisely. Having name brand stuff isn't gonna make you a better tech, it "can" make you a more efficient one though. If you choose wisely you sacrifice nothing in the end. As for welding pliers, I just use side cutters. Besides, the welder at work comes nowhere close to the sound of sizzling bacon that my own welder produces every time. In other words, my welding pliers are at home used for MY welder-lol
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2013, 09:49 AM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,171
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,317
Thanked 1,161 Times in 1,024 Posts
I've used the side cutters for years, thought I would splurge for the nozzle cleaning needs and get the tool made for the job.

I have no idea exactly what you mean by making you a better tech, the way I see it the better tech has better tools, period, that is what makes them the better tech, the desire to have the best. I am talking overall, obviously someone can work wonders with lesser quality tools, but as an overall, more often than not being more efficient is one of the qualities of a good tech, so having quality tools does make you "better".

But as I put in the "Basics" I am not telling "techs" how to buy tools, they had better know by now! I was talking to the newbe and that message still stands in my opinion, buy the best tool they can afford and it will make the learning curve less steep, you know what I mean?

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2013, 01:32 PM
put up or shut up
 

Last journal entry: saying goodbye to the beast
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Antelope, Ca
Posts: 2,063
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 574
Thanked 231 Times in 210 Posts
If a newb buffs with a Makita it's not gonna turn out any worse if it were a HF buffer. That said, certain tools that are good are worth it. Snap On clip tools. Nothing compares! I'll gladly spend $25 on them. I think it comes down to the tech. Some of the crappiest techs I've worked with had tool boxes worth more than my car, but it certainly didn't make them better techs. The old man in our shop he doesn't even have his tools in the shop. He uses a file cabinet at work and inside is the bare essentials and that's it. No fancy shmancy stuff.

My advice for a newb would be to buy what you need and if you want better more power to you. I'd put more emphasis on getting a good clear gun over brand of buffer a guy is using. In a nutshell, the good air tools are smoother and use less air, which can be a factor. I take cars apart just fine with a Craftsman ratchet and you learn which cheap tools to avoid and which ones are worth the money. That kind of info is useful for guys who want a bang for their buck.

Last edited by tech69; 10-30-2013 at 01:42 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2013, 01:47 PM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,171
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,317
Thanked 1,161 Times in 1,024 Posts
I agree it isn't carved in stone. I know a guy with a box that cost more than any car I have ever bought in my life and was a pathetic bodyman or anything else for that matter. And one of the best I have ever seen works out of an old Craftsman mechanics box from the seventies. What I am talking about is over all, over all the good tech has good tools.

On the newb buffing with a Makita or cheapie, yeah I think you are right. But again, most tools that are cheap and inferior require more skills to use. The better the tool as a rule, the easier it is to accomplish what the tool is made for. And the easier it is on your body, the pro using a cheap tool or using a quality tool his body can tell the difference as well as his clock because it can be done faster. That's how I see it, at least again, as an average. There are obviously anomalies, just as there are in most every thing in life.

If I have two dentists to go to and one of them has what I know are cheap tools stuck in an old school desk I and the other has the best most high quality tools in a spotless office and stored properly I am going to lean towards the him.

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2013, 02:39 PM
gearheadslife's Avatar
MentalMuffinMan
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,263
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 112
Thanked 295 Times in 273 Posts
basic tools, hf is good for, if you don't use them much, like my mother would use, but I'd never even think of buying welding/gas wrench stuff from there..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2013, 02:51 PM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,171
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,317
Thanked 1,161 Times in 1,024 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by gearheadslife View Post
basic tools, hf is good for, if you don't use them much, like my mother would use, but I'd never even think of buying welding/gas wrench stuff from there..

You are wiser than me! I thought it was simple enough, though I did have some concerns, heck yes. But in looking at the product and figuring it is a pretty low tech tool for goodness sakes, it's one step above an F-ing broom and dust pan for goodness sakes! But alas, you are right and I shouldn't have even thought about it. I know that when it broke, it didn't even cross my mind to go get a replacement from HF. The second it busted I looked up at the clock to see if my hardware store was still open.

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2013, 03:00 PM
gearheadslife's Avatar
MentalMuffinMan
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,263
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 112
Thanked 295 Times in 273 Posts
I just don't like the Idea of a chance of a fire near the bottles,
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2013, 04:16 PM
BOBCRMAN@aol.com's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Holly, michigan
Posts: 8,129
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 25
Thanked 267 Times in 250 Posts
I bought a HF gas hose set for my small portable tanks on my wrecker. The hoses on the setup were over twenty years old and had been repaired quite a few times and brittle on the outer hose.. Man those new hoses looked good... One year later they were faded to grey and the outer hose, near the tanks, was turning to hard powder.. No more HF hoses for me..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2013, 07:44 PM
Irelands child's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: Ford engine specifications Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 4,913
Wiki Edits: 8

Thanks: 14
Thanked 205 Times in 186 Posts
I try to be real careful with my HF purchases. I just bought a set of metric impact sockets which if they last as well as the SAE, are a good deal. I'll also use my HF 3T jack as I don't have to earn a living using it so it works very well. I also buy nitrile gloves, wire brushes and other shop type supplies. I wont use their clear goggles - they smell bad plus scratch if you look at them wrong so get the better ones from Home Depot or Lowes (3M or Willson). I will not buy regular wrenches, sockets or ratchets, preferring the Snap on, S-K, MAC, Craftsman or even the Gear Wrench brand (tho they are wearing out). For sure I'll never buy their cut off wheels. For my woodworking - not much that HF sells will I bother to cart home as it for the most part is junk. It does amaze me how many folks I see with shopping carts full of common tools. I just hope that they aren't tring to do more then DIY work with them as they wont last on a professional level. Now, gas hoses - I replaced mine a couple years ago - actually found some US made though can't find the brand name. And my MIG pliers - phew, expensive ($20 or so) and came from the local welding supply house.
__________________
Irelands child
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2013, 08:43 PM
Dimwit
 

Last journal entry: S10 fabrication (cont'd)
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Friendswood, TX
Posts: 103
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 12
Thanked 15 Times in 15 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
If I have two dentists to go to and one of them has what I know are cheap tools stuck in an old school desk and the other has the best most high quality tools in a spotless office and stored properly I am going to lean towards him.

Brian
You move to a new town with only two barbers. One has a nice shop. Clean floors. Never a wait. He has a good haircut. The other guy's shop is cluttered. He's always rushing, yet he always has guys waiting. His haircut looks like someone used a bowl.

Which one do you use?

Who do you think cuts the hair of the barber with the nice cut?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2013, 10:50 PM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,171
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,317
Thanked 1,161 Times in 1,024 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supercharged03 View Post
You move to a new town with only two barbers. One has a nice shop. Clean floors. Never a wait. He has a good haircut. The other guy's shop is cluttered. He's always rushing, yet he always has guys waiting. His haircut looks like someone used a bowl.

Which one do you use?

Who do you think cuts the hair of the barber with the nice cut?
I don't know, how about a baker, one has donuts..............
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2013, 11:43 PM
put up or shut up
 

Last journal entry: saying goodbye to the beast
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Antelope, Ca
Posts: 2,063
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 574
Thanked 231 Times in 210 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by gearheadslife View Post
basic tools, hf is good for, if you don't use them much, like my mother would use, but I'd never even think of buying welding/gas wrench stuff from there..
It's trial and error. I took all my sockets home cause the boss has the exact same craftsman ratchets/sockets and saw a coupon for a free ratchet and socket set at HF...you couldn't pay me to use them! They're still sitting on my box collecting dust. The sockets don't even have the dimple inside to hold sockets. Sometimes I work on very expensive cars and as soon as I figured out the sockets fall right off the extension/tool I stopped using them. So I then just got the premium brand of Craftsman ratchets, which are expensive. To me it's always better to go thru the trial and error instead of buying the best of the best for every single thing. It reminds me of newbs who get the HF English wheel and before even using it they get info on-line and then they're talking about using dial indicators and making the wheel true. REALLY? Maybe they should work up sort of skill at it before caring about all that stuff. Just my 2 cents.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Garage - Tools posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Expensive Tools Vs. Cheap Tools car2shirt Garage - Tools 32 09-22-2010 06:03 PM
What garage tools have you scored cheap? Huskinhano Garage - Tools 52 09-30-2009 11:33 AM
Thinking of buying a used compressor--what should I watch out for? superkaz661 Garage - Tools 6 11-09-2007 05:48 AM
new at buying tools ep50merc Engine 15 02-24-2007 08:44 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.