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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2009, 05:18 PM
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Water not required.

The law California enacted and will likely spread across the country does not mandate water rather lower VOC. You can obtain the lower VOC with solvent technology that performs nearly as well as today's solvent products we are used to using. Transtar and Matrix already introduced a solvent compliant system and House of Kolor has one as well using a special converter in their basecoats. Interestingly enough the smaller companies are the ones attacking the solvent low VOC basecoats while the larger companies are sticking with their water technology only although I did hear PPG was looking at commercializing a Low VOC solvent product.

Either way, Fear not! Once we have a little gun time with water or with the new low VOC basecoats it'll be fine.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2009, 12:39 AM
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I talked to a guy that mixes paints at the local auto paint story. We where discussing what I was doing with Lacquer the difference in bc/cc, So we where talk about this very same thing. He was telling me the smelled is similar to house paints. Which if true is going to be a lot easer for the hobby guy to paint at home. Which I'm all for. But It still raises the questions how long will it last and so on Like any new product does. I may go out and pick up a quart and test it out my self to see. Its about time they start making paint safer.

Craig
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Old 12-18-2009, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldBodyman
Waterborne is NOT safer than solvent borne, all the chems are water-soluble so you can absorb them straight thru your skin. Tyvec jump suits and nitrile gloves for everyone.
So true! I used HOK on my coupe last spring, a respirator, gloves, covering up any exposed skin is advised. Warnings of nerve damage, seizures, etc. How is this any safer! I am going to assume it is water based, a special mineral free water is used to thin if needed. The clear coat smells like a few deep breaths would kill you. I am in the San Joaquin valley in Ca., this is the most stringent area in the country for paint regulations, it's supposed to get tougher after the first of the coming year. Yet I can drive 80 miles and buy most any kind of paint I need on the coastal areas. It's a bit confusing to me as to anything this deadly to your body can be considered safer, the residues, oversprays, etc have to go somewhere, soil, water table eventually, atmosphere. This paint was a b**** to use and I will go out of state to buy if I ever paint again.
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Old 12-18-2009, 09:00 AM
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waterbased paint

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevyTruckGuy
I talked to a guy that mixes paints at the local auto paint story. We where discussing what I was doing with Lacquer the difference in bc/cc, So we where talk about this very same thing. He was telling me the smelled is similar to house paints. Which if true is going to be a lot easer for the hobby guy to paint at home. Which I'm all for. But It still raises the questions how long will it last and so on Like any new product does. I may go out and pick up a quart and test it out my self to see. Its about time they start making paint safer.

Craig
caterpillar have used water based paint on earth moveing equ for many years,it is dull in finish but durable,i think the dull finish is what they what they wanted, but unsure. cliff
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Old 12-18-2009, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinger
So true! I used HOK on my coupe last spring, a respirator, gloves, covering up any exposed skin is advised. Warnings of nerve damage, seizures, etc. How is this any safer! I am going to assume it is water based, a special mineral free water is used to thin if needed. The clear coat smells like a few deep breaths would kill you. I am in the San Joaquin valley in Ca., this is the most stringent area in the country for paint regulations, it's supposed to get tougher after the first of the coming year. Yet I can drive 80 miles and buy most any kind of paint I need on the coastal areas. It's a bit confusing to me as to anything this deadly to your body can be considered safer, the residues, oversprays, etc have to go somewhere, soil, water table eventually, atmosphere. This paint was a b**** to use and I will go out of state to buy if I ever paint again.

HOK does not have a water-borne paint. Their product is low VOC solvent based. So, it has the same kinds of hazards that the solvent paints we have been using have.

Water-borne paints are generally safer for painting because of the significant reduction in solvent content (just like house paint there is still some solvent in water-borne auto paint even). It is a myth that water-borne paints are less safe because they are readily absorbed by the body. water-borne auto paints are no more dangerous than house paint and we've all had house paint all over us many times I am sure.

It does not appear that the new legislation will reduce the biggest(by far) danger in automotive paints...isocyanates. Found primarily in 2K urethanes (the activator components) isocyanates are amoung the leading causes of occupational asthma. Unfortunately, there is not a viable replacement to iso technology for our (painters) use at this point.
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Old 12-20-2009, 03:17 PM
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I've been resistant to water-borne paints, of all kinds, for many years. In recent years, though, most of the money spent on development of paints has gone into acrylics. Today, modern acrylic house and industrial finishes are superior to oil based, in many ways.

I don't see why the automotive industry has to be any different. We all know that the modern urethane and BC/CC systems have many very bad chemicals associated with them. Despite the fact that they do a good job, why would we not welcome a paint system that is less forboding to use?

PPG has a new water borne system called Vibrance. I believe the clear is even water based. Street Rodder magazine used it in one of their feature cars a few months ago, and it looked like it did a great job. Obviously pictures don't show everything; but it might bear checking out.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 12-21-2009, 08:07 AM
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There is no waterborne clears on the market that I know of.

Here is the long and short of "water borne" paints, they reduce the VOC in the paint that goes into our atmosphere. The clear is still the same urethane at this point, the PAINT water borne but the clear is the same, though they are making less and less VOC clears.

"Water borne" auto products have used alcohol as a "link" from water to oil based solvents having a shared atom in their molecules, carbon as I remember. So "Waterborne" automotive paint is sort of a "hybrid" of sorts.

They aren't that new, even in America they have been around for years as far as undercoats and even factory finish back in the seventies and eighties. GM shot waterborne on their cars made in LA. And no, it wasn't the cause of the peeling epidemic. I used a great waterborne primer back then called "Novaprime" as a barrier coat over sensitive substrates like uncured synthetic enamel. You could have a super sensitive substrate that would wrinkle up with just a dust of lacquer or enamel and after a couple of coats of "Novaprime" water borne primer you could spray your lacquer or enamel over it wet as you wanted.

I have seen some problems in the shop with waterborne that need to be corrected with technique or with product "evolution" just as we had with BC/CC.

The transition from lacquer to urethane in collision shops back in the eighties created just the same concerns and hesitation. The introduction of HVLP guns did the same thing. There was a time of uncertainty in both HVLP and Urethane, there was a "learning curve" that was VERY steep at times. Both the consumer and the manufacturers had a HELL of a time in the early days of both if you don't remember!

Waterborne is just the same, the sky is not falling. I have shot waterborne paint in a WAY less than ideal setting with success. It CAN be done in your garage just like your traditional paints. Click here for an ALL aerosol product review using waterborne basecoat.

The big thing that has been talked about for years is simply making it illegal to BUY any paint without a license. Worry about that if you want, it has been talked about since the clean air act of 1990, that IS coming someday I assume. But this waterborne, don't sweat it goo much.

Brian
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 12-21-2009, 08:52 AM
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everybody is saying it's safer ,,,,,, bottom line--- how does it look ??? can you get that "mile deep" look ??? ghost flames ??? 3 color fade ??? or is it going to look like my bathroom,,, kitchen.... is it glass smoooth ???? or am i going to have to look at fisheyes ?? just worked briefly at a ford dealer ,, and i noticed that when i put the new cars up on the outside rack,, the paint was "bumpy" not flat like a $30.000.oo car should look.. I WAS NOT IMPRESSED.... MY fridge is smother than those cars....
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 12-21-2009, 12:22 PM
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Crap, I can't remember the name right now.......geeeez. Anyway, there is an custom paint that is waterborne and I know a number of people who have been using it for years!

It is GREAT for graffics because of how fast it dries.

Brian
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:03 PM
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I don't often post on here, but as someone who has been painting exclusively, day to day, with water borne base for over 4 years now, I thought I might be able to put some of your fears at rest.

Yes it can require slightly different application techniques, but no more so than moving from one brand of paint to another. And yes it does require a decent amount of airflow to dry properly, but in a booth this can be arranged by a simple and inexpensive stand mount or even hand held 'air mover'. For the guy painting in his garage (as I often do at the weekend) small areas can be dried very quickly with a hot air / heat gun. Larger areas are more tricky, but it's still possible if you can combine some kind of warmth and air movement.

I know as painters we don't like change, especially when it's forced upon us, but certainly from my point of view I don't miss solvent base one little bit, and if I was given a free choice of either, I'd choose water every time!
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Old 12-21-2009, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
Crap, I can't remember the name right now.......geeeez. Anyway, there is an custom paint that is waterborne and I know a number of people who have been using it for years!

It is GREAT for graffics because of how fast it dries.

Brian
Are you thinking of auto air Brian? I have heard some people say they like it, while others say its junk and can be hard to dry.
I must admit, I have real limited exposure to waterbased products, other then some stuff used at school I shot in the early 90's and some industrial stuff a few years back when I was working as an industrial painter. But what I've used, I don't like the stuff. Guess I may not have much of a choice in the future if I want to continue painting. I just wonder how well the stuff will work in Wisconsin in january without a big heat bill or buying curing equiptment.
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Old 12-21-2009, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalesy
PPG has a new water borne system called Vibrance.
I'll just clarify...PPG's waterborne is Called "Envirobase HP". Vibrance has been around for a while, and is solvent, however according to PPG, it is compatible with Envirobase.

Bobjob...Yes, waterborne can provide all that. That ****ty appearance of almost every OM is due to the way the factory applies and cures it. I challenge anyone who doubts waterborne's capabilities to try and spot a nice car sprayed in waterborne. You won't be able to tell by looking, I can guarantee.


One thing that is SUPER weird to get used to when using Envirobase (I dont recall it being so extreme with Glasurit, and I dont know about other lines) is the change in apperance between wet and dry paint. With Envirobase you CANNOT get even CLOSE to telling the true colour until the base is dry. The first couple times I mixed with it, I thought I had severely messed up. Quite literally, my Ford's black looked like forest green, and dark blue looks like a werid green, and as it starts to dry turns into a bright blue. Colours are totally wacky wet, but with some faith they sure turn out nice. Kudos to PPG, their colour chips are amazingly accurate. Choose the right chip, mix and spray. Never had a colour not turn out.
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:03 AM
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I have never painted a car. I am just one of those guys who is trying to learn as much about it as I can efore venturing into painting my own car. I read this thread and was convinced that water based paints were the way to go for me. Safer and from what I read here and on other sites, pretty forgiving. I also heard that the re-coat times were pretty open as well which would help a guy who may not be able to do the whole car in one sitting. However, my pursuit to find these paints has been a bust. Everyone I have contacted pretty much laughs at me for even asking for them. If I don't own a paint shop, they really won't give me the time of day.
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Old 01-03-2010, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by xpsyclonex2002
I also heard that the re-coat times were pretty open as well which would help a guy who may not be able to do the whole car in one sitting.
I've heard this from Pros too. It's hard for people with limited equipment to paint a car properly in a garage. The Water-Borne's will more forgiving.
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Old 01-04-2010, 09:06 AM
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paint changes

My nephew used to live in the SF bay area and was the the volunteer painter for historical museum restorations. Half way thru a big project when Calif banned the paint they were using and the new approved stuff didn't match. Somehow, someone found some old paint so he could finish.
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