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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 01-04-2010, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgold
I've heard this from Pros too. It's hard for people with limited equipment to paint a car properly in a garage. The Water-Borne's will more forgiving.
------------------------------------------------------

I keep reading this BS and I want to see you post this after you have shot a waterborne base in the NJ humidity without a bunch of special equipment.

Also, it is pure BS that waterborne is really safe to spray.
Just so people know you need to have the same protection as you would if shooting a solvent base, if its not safe to drink, its not safe to inhale.

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2010, 02:55 AM
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My concerns are painting in -20 degree F weather and my heat bill, painting in high humidity, and color sanding.
And after I read that you can't tell the color when it's wet irks me a little too.

I talked to my PPG rep last month about this, and there isn't anything on the table as far as federally mandating water based paints, so even if it something came up tomorrow it would take two years to go through the bureaucracy of government, and probably have another 3-4 years of conversion grace.

So figure at least 5 more years of R&D on water based paints before you have to spray them.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2010, 07:03 AM
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Cutter, have no fear, water is not mandated anywhere, it is only a VOC law.

Water is being pushed and has been since 1985 by the paint companies, why?

Pure money maker as the cost is way less then a solvent Bourne but they are getting a 25% premium and on top of that it is already reduced, mooooo- profit.

BUT wait, Transar is importing a low VOC base from Australia, Matrix, just came out with one and in the darkness of the night, with no fan fare PPG is coming out with one. Could it be profit is good, unless you start chasing your customers away??

Could it be, there are problems, not if you are in the SW USA where humidity is under 30% but on the east cost we may see 30% for 20 minutes once a year.

Mgold will look pretty funny laying a coat of base and then calling all his neighbors over with hair dryers, trying to dry the first coat, so two days later he can spray the second coat. When was the last time NJ saw 30% Hum???
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2010, 07:37 AM
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PPG made a HUGE effort this past year to switch over to waterborne paints, I hauled their products from several paint plants to distributors.

The ONLY real change for the volumes of paint I hauled, which was usually in 1,3,5,35,and 55 gallon containers for most of the distribution points your suppliers would get their stuff from, all the way up to 500 gallon containers of paint to auto and appliance assembly plants, was we went from hauling hazardous materials, to non-hazardous.

We had to haul both in heated trailers, and the temperature requirements on the bills of lading called for the same temp rnage to be held. I still have ALL my old bills from all loads hauled in the 2 years I did it.
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Old 01-05-2010, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK
I keep reading this BS and I want to see you post this after you have shot a waterborne base in the NJ humidity without a bunch of special equipment
Yeah! Ok I understand what you are saying. Here in Maryalnd the Humidity during the Summer is horrible too!

I never said the paint was perfect! I'm just relaying what I was told from people who have used it.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2010, 12:26 PM
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I knew you had never sprayed it and normally would never even respond to a post like this but towards the last half this stuff was turning into the next coming as to how child proof it is.

I could just see some sucker who has spent two years prepping his pride and joy, in say Michigan and then trying to spray this stuff in his garage.

Its tough enough for a professional with a retrofitted both.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2010, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgold
I never said the paint was perfect!
Of course it isn't - no paint is

But then it seems to be made out to be the Devils spawn by many, which it definitely isn't. Sure it's not very well suited to the DIY market (possible as I've mentioned, but a pain in the rear compared to solvent base), but then I doubt that's where the paint companies are focusing their attention. They'll make much more money out of guys like me painting 80+ cars a week than someone that might paint his own car every year or so, so to me it makes little economic sense for them to make it easy for that guy (and as we all know, they're all about profit profit profit!).

For the shops spraying in a proper heated booth (and lets face it, most productive shops will be), very little extra investment is needed. A set of air blowers (available from as little as £150 here) is all the extra equipment you need. Retrofitting a booth with quads and built in air blowers is nice, but not essential unless you're trying to turn out a full repaint every hour.

Personally I'd like to see a two tier system though. Both water and solvent based systems available side by side, with the little guy being able to use solvent, but the bigger players and shops that produce over a certain amount of VOC emissions being made to use water.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK
Its tough enough for a professional with a retrofitted both.
I know I'm cutting my throat here given your knowledge, experience, and the high regard you are held in on here, but with respect, I simply can't agree.

I've been painting in very high production environments exclusively with water borne base for over fours years now, so have done several thousand jobs in that time, and I certainly wouldn't call it tough. Yes it takes a slightly different approach than using solvent, but I don't find it any harder. Maybe even easier in some respects due to the potential time savings.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2010, 02:55 PM
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I can't imagine what it is like spraying ANYTHING in Alabama in July, booth, no booth, whatever. But one thing I have been wondering about reading this thread and others when the humitiy subject comes up is what about the air venturi air blowers?



I know it isn't going to be easy, but I have to believe that it would make it possible to spray in a garage. I know I sprayed (once) without a booth in California using these blowers without a hitch, it flashed off pretty fast.

Seemed to work pretty well.

Brian
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2010, 03:33 PM
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That kind of venturi blower is all that I've ever used in a booth situation, and they work perfectly. As I infer above, you need more than that if you're trying to rush through full repaints, but these will dry a full side or front end very quickly indeed. They will blow any dust around, so a clean job and workplace is important.

They do work better when recirculating warm booth air about though, so on the last garage job I did (cold, damp, mechanics shop, just above freezing) I pointed a hot air / heat gun at the back of one, so it was blowing out plenty of fast moving warm air, and it dried the base a treat.

I know you may laugh, but I've been looking at salon type hair-dryers for my weekend jobs. These tend to have a high airflow at reasonable temps, so should be ideal for blowing water base dry.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2010, 05:19 PM
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Paint guy,

I know where you are coming from and I agree.

I have been involved in selling Manufacturers for years, from OEM parts, aviation OEM to lamp manufacturers.
We made e-coats, UV curable coatings for these markets and I will tell you this.

Water based paints are and have been used for a long time in manufacturing and work very well but these are "controlled conditions".

I talk with painters that use waterborne almost daily in body shops, some like it, some hate it, it does work but again "controlled conditions".

Those blowers Brain showed, would do, what, a door and maybe a fender, I assure you his body shop has a lot of toys to make the waterborne work as they are a big shop.

My post was for the do-it your-selfer or hobbyist and remember the majority of the people on here are just that.

They don't have the proper equipment in their garage at home to pull this off, unless like I said, they live in the SW.

Sorry if I offended you but I'm only looking out for the do it your-self guy and if you read the posts, someone that had never used it was starting to sound like an infomercial and this stuff was miracle paint and too many new guys were paying attention.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2010, 05:30 PM
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I used to use a lot of that stuff when I was a kid ...its awful messy but it cleans up well.I just got some for my grand daughters this Christmas They love squishing it through their fingers but we call it finger paint I never tried spraying it on a car seams it would wash of in the rain.It took me a long time just to use that funny looking gun with the cup on top but it stopped me from hitting the roof with the cup.Just when I get good at blending tri coats they go and pull this stuff .No, I havent used it and wont, I'm doing just fine with the stuff I'm using.no need to switch.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2010, 06:18 PM
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Can you wet sand the water base to nib out dust or a run without wiping off all of the base and starting over?

And doing a silver blend, does it need a mid coat for the metallic to lay right, and if so, how does it react with mid coat clears and clear sealers?
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2010, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cutterbond
Can you wet sand the water base to nib out dust or a run without wiping off all of the base and starting over?

And doing a silver blend, does it need a mid coat for the metallic to lay right, and if so, how does it react with mid coat clears and clear sealers?
You dry sand it.

Brian
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2010, 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK
Sorry if I offended you but I'm only looking out for the do it your-self guy and if you read the posts, someone that had never used it was starting to sound like an infomercial and this stuff was miracle paint and too many new guys were paying attention.
No offence taken at all - we're all adults here

And yes, I see where you're going. It's hard for me not to see things from a trade point of view, but I did try and balance my posts out by saying it wasn't exactly great for DIY use. Unfortunately we have little choice but to use it in either situation over here, so I've just has to try and work around it's shortcomings with my weekend work.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2010, 09:11 AM
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I see it having a lot of qualities PERFECT for the home hobbyist. First off, it's metallic distribution is even better than with the old basecoat. Which was MILES better than a SS metallic. You just can't mess it up, spray it willy nilly anyway you want and the darn stuff looks good.

I think the "flashing" is more visual, you can SEE when it is wet and when it isn't. Which would lead to less of a chance of trapping solvents.

I don't know, minus the humidity issues which I am the first to admit, I know nothing about. Around here, I think it is the cat's meow for the first time painter.

Brian
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