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Old 12-14-2009, 08:45 AM
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Water-Borne Paints! Coming to a Body Shop near You!

Hey Everyone,

Currently I'm an Auto Collision Technology student and just learning about how to paint cars. Recently my teacher told me the paint supplier he works with in 3 years or less will switch entirely over to Water-Borne paints in Maryland. Probably in 5 years they won't even sell anything else.

My teacher seemed annoyed that they are switching and he needs to learn new techniques. Although he accepts the change is coming!

I haven't gotten a chance to use them myself, but I personally hear they are great to work with. If you mess up... just get a wet cloth and wipe away the paint! Also considering that they are much lower in VOC and Isocynates, they are obviously better for a techs health.

I'm wondering what people on this forum think? How do you older guys feel about switching over to new stuff?

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Old 12-14-2009, 10:31 AM
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what defines older?.....

i welcome it, especially for the hobbyist. i think it will be safer for the do it yourselfer that jumps out there and sprays without the proper gear. (yes, i have done it too)

i would like to see how well the paint holds up over time, and against the elements.
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Old 12-14-2009, 11:40 AM
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I don't know what the current status is but I was under the understanding that even with WB paints, you still used Iso type clears, which has all the health hazards. I didn't think WB clears were mainstream on the market yet.

I love the idea of a less hazardous paint as I want to do my own truck, since it's in pieces but don't want to kill myself, my family, neighbor's, etc. or spend $$$$ on fresh air systems to paint one truck.
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Old 12-14-2009, 12:57 PM
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I think the main benefit to waterborne is it doesn't contain the solvents the urethane base contains. Solvents are hard on everything from ozone to lungs. Iso's in the clear are just hard on primarily lungs and nervous systems, as if they weren't important.
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Old 12-14-2009, 04:47 PM
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Heres a thread that will be interesting to watch the SPI fans turn into a SPI is the only way to go thread
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Old 12-14-2009, 05:35 PM
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i personally think we should all just quit breathing. That will solve EVERYTHING........wait..

oh back to the topic.......WB will be out for about 10-20 years and then they will find a way to say it's bad for everyone and the world and be trying to figure something else out. My question is what are all these "GREEN" bodyshops going to do when manufacturers start coming out with solvent based systems that meet local voc laws after they've invested allllllll this money in wb systems, booths, and paint guns.
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Old 12-14-2009, 05:56 PM
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I think its crapola, and just yet more regulation and expense forced on bodyshops (which already takes a ton of money to keep the doors open), which then translates into even more costs to paint a car then already. And like usually happens, you probably have an inferior product to what you use to have to boot. And yes painters need to get training and certification, More revenue.

Material costs are already outrageous, you don't see too many older non so popular cars getting a new paint job like many years ago, and many cars with relatively little damage are totalled, because its cheaper for the insurance to pay the bluebook value on the car then to have it fixed. Small shops which are competition with large or chain shops, to help keep costs reasonable, now will have to invest either invest in expensive curing equiptment to get the waterbased sheet to ever dry, or shut their doors. And I disagree, it won't be any safer for the hobbiest. You will still use solvent based 2k clears, and lucky you can so the paint job will be able to hold up. But you have the hassle of getting the waterbase to dry and hopefully your solvent based clear will adhere. Doesn't sound too great for us way up north that like to do a little painting at home every now and then. But don't worry, the way its going, soon the hobbiest won't be able to purchase paint anyways.
In all honesty I haven't used any waterbased stuff since around 1991 in school. But it was real crapola then. Hopefully its at least improved from then.

I'll still think waterbase is junk, but as far as I know, SPI would be all set to make waterborn if needed, and I bet ut would still probably better value and quality then the majors stuff.

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Old 12-14-2009, 07:03 PM
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It's not weather it's waterborne or not,,,abc or nbc ... it's meeting the VOC limits in each area. The fines that would come to those who sell and ship into those areas are insane to risk.
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Old 12-14-2009, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyb
i personally think we should all just quit breathing. That will solve EVERYTHING........wait..

oh back to the topic.......WB will be out for about 10-20 years and then they will find a way to say it's bad for everyone and the world and be trying to figure something else out. My question is what are all these "GREEN" bodyshops going to do when manufacturers start coming out with solvent based systems that meet local voc laws after they've invested allllllll this money in wb systems, booths, and paint guns.
Waterborne has already been around for 10-20 Years, it is just now becoming popular for you folks. Canada's already had waterborne for several years, although it has yet to be totally legistlated in.

The thing is, chemical companies are not morons. Highly trained chemists performing years of R&D certainly know more than any of us. Especially with such ignorance as some people seem to display. IF solvent borne technology COULD meet VOC limits and still perform to the current standards, do you not think all the major companies (PPG, BASF, Glasurit, DuPont, Sikkens etc...) would keep solvent in?

I don't know how it all works, and I won't pretend to. But I do believe manufactuers who have been well trusted in the refinish trade for years and years know what they are doing for the most part.

Go to Germany. Ask them about this crazy new waterborne stuff and ask them how long it will last. Chances are they'll point to a Porsche painted 10 years ago with Glasurit water.
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Old 12-14-2009, 08:25 PM
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"But I do believe manufactuers who have been well trusted in the refinish trade for years and years know what they are doing for the most part. "

They already know exactly what they are going to do:

change the physical size of the metallics and the pearls so the older systems CANNOT match the new cars.

this will force the change-over like they did with BC/CC, AND acrylic enamels, AND acrylic lacquers. They do know how to play the game fairly well.

Hell, the manufacturers could easily build the bodies with color impregnated plastic and COMPLETELY eliminate re-paints anytime they want to.
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Old 12-14-2009, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldBodyman
"But I do believe manufactuers who have been well trusted in the refinish trade for years and years know what they are doing for the most part. "

They already know exactly what they are going to do:

change the physical size of the metallics and the pearls so the older systems CANNOT match the new cars.

this will force the change-over like they did with BC/CC, AND acrylic enamels, AND acrylic lacquers. They do know how to play the game fairly well.

Hell, the manufacturers could easily build the bodies with color impregnated plastic and COMPLETELY eliminate re-paints anytime they want to.
And wonder how much of their interest in a changeover is to eliminate competition from smaller paint manufacturers that have really cut into the big boys sales and their overpriced products, and most have heard how the majors were accused of price fixing years ago.
Although I don't know how much this would help at the present time, being as solvent based primers and clearcoats I believe will still be used, and need to at this point for durability, and thats what most smaller manufacturers limit themselves too, and not colors and formulation, except maybe selling a limited number of more popular colors.
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Old 12-15-2009, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldBodyman
"But I do believe manufactuers who have been well trusted in the refinish trade for years and years know what they are doing for the most part. "

They already know exactly what they are going to do:

change the physical size of the metallics and the pearls so the older systems CANNOT match the new cars.

this will force the change-over like they did with BC/CC, AND acrylic enamels, AND acrylic lacquers. They do know how to play the game fairly well.

Hell, the manufacturers could easily build the bodies with color impregnated plastic and COMPLETELY eliminate re-paints anytime they want to.
Exactly. I know it's true with Sikkens..don't know about the others. Big manufacturers know how to make money and they do it very well. Anyone honestly think they care if we like it or not? (well..to some extent..afterall we do buy the stuff)

Oh and House of Kolor, as far as i know, is working on a solventbased basecoat that will meet the requirements in california. With all this technology today...you think these big companies cant produce solvent base basecoats that meet voc requirements? Maybe Barry can chime in on this one because it seems they could..but im no chemist.
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Old 12-15-2009, 04:40 PM
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Look some people can be upset about the change, but the reality is PAINT COMPANIES ARE SWITCHING!

As someone who's possibly going into the field I don't mind that paint companies are trying to find ways to lower VOC's, and Isocynate levels in paints. If it's better for my health, I'm totally for it!

It's true that it's hard to make a Water-Borne Clearcoat and as far as I know they don't have that yet. Overall though it lowers your exposure. The paints actually don't need as much special equipment as what's being used now. The paint is supposed to dry faster, and more easily. It can dry quickly without a booth even. So the hobbyist who wants to do a DIY paint job, will have an easier time.
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Old 12-15-2009, 05:43 PM
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F.i. ..

let it rust...rat rods are the way to go...the government makes us all crazy...most of the **** cars of today are plastic any way....body shop owners will start to go away,then you will see wall-mart open a franchise.....
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Old 12-15-2009, 09:32 PM
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Since the acrylic enamels came out in the late sixties the paint just sits on top of the layer below, the paint does not remelt the lower paint and bond mechanically to it SO the solvent (alcohol, thinner, reducer or water) is just a transport agent to get the paint from the gun to the part. It really does not make a difference which they choose to use, the shops will adjust.

Waterborne is NOT safer than solvent borne, all the chems are water-soluble so you can absorb them straight thru your skin. Tyvec jump suits and nitrile gloves for everyone.
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