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Old 02-01-2004, 09:10 PM
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water pump problem

I have a vette 454 in my 68 camaro and have a heating problem. To hot.

I determined that it is airflow so I purchased a vintage air 4000 cfm fan w/ shroud that fits the rad (griffin 4 core 3" wide aluminum) perfect.

Problem is the motor for the fan hits my water pump pully. Tried shifting the rad around right and left on the mounting core but no luck.

Somehow I need to come up with 1/2" of clearance.

I have a long water pump. Would a short water pump be smaller? Would it push as much water?

I don't want to fix my airflow problem only to have a coolant flow problem. but I need to find some way to get a bit more clearance. Without cutting up the mounting panel.

Any ideas for clearance?

Thanks
Rick

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Old 02-01-2004, 09:31 PM
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Rakundig,
If you put the short water pump then all of the other pulleys will be out of alignment. I think I would talk to the people you bought the electric fan from and see if they would exchange this fan and motor for one that will fit. You may have to pay a "restocking" fee but at least you would have something that will cool your engine down. I think you will want to push the air through the radiator instead of sucking the air through. There is an idea mount the motor on the front side of the radiator but still facing in the correct direction. The fan will push the air through the radiator and cool the beast within. It is worth a look anyway.
Good Luck
Scholman
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Old 02-01-2004, 09:42 PM
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Well here is my other question

Main problem is my Griffin 4 core rad is too thick. If I used the stock rad the fan would work. However the stock rad (camaro rad not vette rad) is only 2 core.

So, here is what I have considered....

put stock rad back in w/ 4000 cfm fan

but.... will the 2 core with alot of air cool the big ole 454?

I hate to waste a brand new aluminum rad but if I can't use it I can't use it. So, does anyone think a 2 core with alot of air flow will cool that monster?

I am close as it is. I kept the shroud in and put a 15" mechanical fan on, leaves big gaps on teh bottom of the fan and right side, about 2.5 to 3" between fan and shroud. Top and left side about 1/2 " gap. (shroud is 18")

Now it stays cool for a while, hits 160 and stagnates for about 15 min (160 thermostat) then slowly starts to climb again. If I get the car moving temp stops wherever it is and won't climb any more until I stop again. So I am real close to cooling I need. Just a fraction more airflow and I got it.

Thanks
Rick
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Old 02-01-2004, 10:37 PM
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water pump

Rakundig, Here is what I have ran into in the past. The "long" Water Pump I have found in the past to be just that. What I mean is that the impaler inside the pump that pushes the water is the same size and has the same amount of "Blades ," the reason it is a long pump is that original radiator for that engine was to far in front of the water pump (providing the fan was on the water pump) for it to cool properly. Now if you use the "short" pump and then find a shot belt pulley to realign all the belt pulley's. Look's like that is what you want. Also some water pump have more and deferent size blades on the impaler. This could make a deference as to how fast the water makes a complete circle. If the water is moving to fast it doesn't stay in the radiator long enough to cool, and there for it just gets hotter all the time. But if the water moves to slow it stay's in the engine to long and then it also get to hot. So it is kind of hard to say just what you should do. I thank I would take a temperature reading at the radiator, to see what way I would go. Then I would look at the "short" pump and if the impaler is of the same size in diameter and the blade's are the same, then it will produce the same as the "long" pump. while you are checking things out, check to see that their are no exhaust fumes in the water. You know a bad head gasket! Mabe a Cracked head!
Just some thing to think about------------------------Gene Neal

Last edited by Gene Neal; 02-01-2004 at 10:46 PM.
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Old 02-01-2004, 11:40 PM
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I have taken temp readings before.

When engine side is showing 200 degrees cool side of rad is showing 170 so I am getting about 30 degrees of cooling.

I am confused about looking for "fumes" in the water. How do I check for that. I know about checking for oil in the water or water in my oil. So far that looks fine.

Thanks
Rick

also, anyone have input on swapping back to the 2 core radiator w/ big 4000 cfm electric fan?
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Old 02-02-2004, 09:54 AM
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re-water pump

Raking! Almost all auto part's stores have them and I believe was part of the Radiator leak test kit. The deal is that if exhaust fumes get in to the water system it will make it over heat. They could get there by way of a cracked head at the exhaust valve port. It happens a lot! -----------------------------------------------------Hope this answer your question. Gene Neal
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Old 08-09-2007, 10:40 AM
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water pump

Nappa has the leak test kit for about 50 bucks. How about going with two electric fans? I had two 13 inch Spals on my 66 Chevelle with a PRC 2 row 1.5 inch tube radiator, short high flow water pump and still ran hot in stop and go traffic.Went back to my 7 blade flex fan and it ran cooler. This weekend going to put on an Dearle 18 inch rigid race fan. Try finding electric Windstar fans at the boneyard they might give you the room you need, plus if you burn a motor out you can get a replacement at O reillys.
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Old 08-09-2007, 11:20 AM
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The 454 did not overheat in the Vette. I agree, your problem is inefficient airflow, but the answer is not an electric fan. What will solve your problem is a OEM clutch fan and close fitting properly installed fan shroud. Electric fans have never been an answer to overheating problems.

Vince
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Old 08-09-2007, 11:30 AM
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water pump

Well with a prc rad. and short water pump i do not have room for a clutchfan,thats why i am going with a Dearle 18 inch race.
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Old 08-09-2007, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rakundig
Well here is my other question

Main problem is my Griffin 4 core rad is too thick. If I used the stock rad the fan would work. However the stock rad (camaro rad not vette rad) is only 2 core.

So, here is what I have considered....

put stock rad back in w/ 4000 cfm fan

but.... will the 2 core with alot of air cool the big ole 454?

I hate to waste a brand new aluminum rad but if I can't use it I can't use it. So, does anyone think a 2 core with alot of air flow will cool that monster?

I am close as it is. I kept the shroud in and put a 15" mechanical fan on, leaves big gaps on teh bottom of the fan and right side, about 2.5 to 3" between fan and shroud. Top and left side about 1/2 " gap. (shroud is 18")

Now it stays cool for a while, hits 160 and stagnates for about 15 min (160 thermostat) then slowly starts to climb again. If I get the car moving temp stops wherever it is and won't climb any more until I stop again. So I am real close to cooling I need. Just a fraction more airflow and I got it.

Thanks
Rick
Would it be possibe to add a pusher fan to the front of the radiator, it seems by your description that you are experiencing low air flow as the problem seem to go away when you are driving
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Old 08-09-2007, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rakundig
I have a vette 454 in my 68 camaro and have a heating problem. To hot.

I determined that it is airflow so I purchased a vintage air 4000 cfm fan w/ shroud that fits the rad (griffin 4 core 3" wide aluminum) perfect.

Problem is the motor for the fan hits my water pump pully. Tried shifting the rad around right and left on the mounting core but no luck.

Somehow I need to come up with 1/2" of clearance.

I have a long water pump. Would a short water pump be smaller? Would it push as much water?

I don't want to fix my airflow problem only to have a coolant flow problem. but I need to find some way to get a bit more clearance. Without cutting up the mounting panel.

Any ideas for clearance?

Thanks
Rick
Yes you can go to a short water pump, the big head ache is that the crank pulley will have to be changed to a short pump type and all the belt driven accessories will have to be relocated, pulley's and brackets to do this are available at the speed shop or from GM.

Bogie
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Old 08-09-2007, 02:03 PM
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water pump problems

My 2 cents. Electric fans are more effecient when installed behind the radiator, so say the fan manufacturers articles I've read and also engineering articles I've read. Mine was also more efficient when I placed it behind the radiator. Electric fans help cool engines period. Many German manufacturers use an engine driven fan and an electric fan behind the radiator for when the temp is higher than the engine fan can handle. Definately seal off the fan shroud to the radiator. Usually if you have exhaust getting into the coolant your cooling system will build lots of pressure soon after start up. Snap On and other companies sell a real neat tool for "sniffing" exhaust in a radiator. If you can afford one it'll never let you down. I've been using one for 25 years and when it says there's a leak there is one and if it says there isn't a leak there isn't one.
Personally I'd seal off the fan shroud tight, install a 160 degree thermostat and try to get a narrower electric fan.
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Old 08-09-2007, 02:19 PM
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water pump problems

In regards to keeping the 2 row and installing the electric fan. I have a similiar set up on a 67 camaro with a built up 383. I kept the radiator fan on it with a fan shroud that fits tight and I put an electric fan inside the shroud. It's basically a set up I see on a lot of the German cars I work on in my repair shop. I have a 3 row aluminum radiator also. I could never keep the engine cool in traffic until I started using my present set up. BTW, I use a 160 degree thermostat also and the electric fan switches on automatically at about 180 degrees. Then again, I'm in New England, not the South Eest or the South East.
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Old 08-09-2007, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rakundig
I have a vette 454 in my 68 camaro and have a heating problem. To hot.

I determined that it is airflow so I purchased a vintage air 4000 cfm fan w/ shroud that fits the rad (griffin 4 core 3" wide aluminum) perfect.

Problem is the motor for the fan hits my water pump pully. Tried shifting the rad around right and left on the mounting core but no luck.

Somehow I need to come up with 1/2" of clearance.

I have a long water pump. Would a short water pump be smaller? Would it push as much water?

I don't want to fix my airflow problem only to have a coolant flow problem. but I need to find some way to get a bit more clearance. Without cutting up the mounting panel.

Any ideas for clearance?

Thanks
Rick
I was able to get the clearance on my rod by using a different pulley if you are using billet some are very thick where the chrome/steel are much thinner.
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Old 08-09-2007, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rakundig
Now it stays cool for a while, hits 160 and stagnates for about 15 min (160 thermostat) then slowly starts to climb again. If I get the car moving temp stops wherever it is and won't climb any more until I stop again. So I am real close to cooling I need. Just a fraction more airflow and I got it.

Thanks
Rick
Part of your problem is the 160 thermostat ...
When Chevrolet installed the 454 engines in their production vehicles ... they used a 180 or a 195. They also used a large belt driven mechanical fan.

1968 Camaros that were originally equipped with the BBC ... came with a short water pump, a shroud and a belt driven fan. They worked great ...

I would go to the short water pump ( with a Flow Kooler plate on the rear )



A belt driven fan ( large ) and a shroud. Install a 180 degree thermostat.
Check your timing and jetting. Hook the vacuum advance up from the carburetor to the distributor.

I know you are in Japan ... so NAPA and the common fixes available to us Americans are a little more difficult
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