Hot Rod Forum banner

Weird clear problem

17K views 40 replies 17 participants last post by  deadbodyman 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi I painted my Blazer a couple months ago.



I used a Napa crossfire CC5000 clear. A week after the paint job I began wet-sanding and buffing. The car had a mirror finish.



Recently though the clear has begun to get rough. It has almost like a dry clear spray look to it a couple months after wet-sanding and buffing.

I used a clear safe wax and everything like that also. Does anyone know why the clear would start to do this?

I cant get a good picture of it though. :pain:
 
See less See more
2
#4 ·
The description you give doesn't sound like anything I can think of.

Tell me, does it have a "leathery" look? If you look real close does it have a look like the top layer has tiny, tiny wrinkles? Is that the rough texture you are talking about?

If it is,that would be shrinkage.
 
#5 ·
You might have sanded through the clear and your looking at UV damage to the base coat. Had that problem in a couple areas on my 41 a few years ago. If that is the case the only real fix that I know of is to sand the panel down and repaint because re-clearing won't help the damaged base coat.

I'm not saying this is your problem but it is something to take into consideration. MARTINSR or one of our other pros should be able to tell you for sure when you can post some better pics.

Centerline
Moderator
 
#6 ·
MartinSR It does look like small wrinkles. Not wrinkles like the clear is cracking andd stuff but wrinkles like a small bumpy rough texture the clear has.

The tiny "Wrinkles" are spreading on every panel though. I would try and take a picture of it but the camera still shows the car like a mirror.

If the clear is shrinking does that mean that the clear will begin to crack and all that bad stuff?
 
#7 ·
It wasn't atomized properly and is full of solvents. This is caused by "bombing" it on to make it "flow". I will preach and preach about this. You just can't expect a product that is applied real heavy to cure and flash properly.

That being said for everyone else :) Now, your problem. It is hard to say how easy this clear is to cut and buff now after a few months. You would want to take a panel at a time or even a section of a panel to see if you can do it. Many times the clear gets too hard after this long and buffing can be a real bear.

But if you were to cut it with some fine paper, 1500 or 2000 and let it breath like that for a few days then buff it you can probably save it. Even if you recut and buffed it without the wait it may work because it has shrank down. But my concern would be that the solvent still didn't get out, it just softened the film, and maybe the film under that as in paint and primer. If it shrank that much, I would say a good thing would be to "open it up" with the 2000 and let it breath.

When I was a rep for NAPA M-S the most extreme case of this I have ever seen was a guy who painted a Mustang convert. This was at a prison, it was painted by a "resident" of the prison for a commanding officer. :) Needless to say he wanted it right. Well first off, he used too slow of reducer in the color, then he bombed on the clear (NAPA M-S clear) so much that it had foggy stripes. Now, this clear was REAL hard to run so he really could pour some on,and he did. So, he color sanded it the next day and painted and cleared again. Again, it had the foggy stripes. Now,mind you, I had never seen anyone apply enough of this clear to get those stripes, he was REALLY bombing it on. So then, he sanded the thing and I came by to correct the problem.

When I got there he had already sprayed the base I showed him how to shoot the clear, everything was cool. One problem, I didn't now he had applied so much material. And, I didn't know he had used the super slow reducer in the color. Well, he buffed it after a few days and it shrank. After he called me and I learned of all the material I told him just what I have told you. He totally sanded it with 2000 and set it outside. The darn thing was still soft a week later! You could stick your fingernail into it! And this was in about 100 degree weather. :pain:

SOOOO, he left it for a couple more weeks, it finally hardened up and he buffed it. I saw it months later and it still looked good. But I sure wouldn't put much of a warrantee on that one!
 
#8 ·
Well the only thing that MIGHT have had a chance to be put on heavy is the last coat of clear because I wetsanded and stuff in between coats and stuff. The wrinkling aint really bad yet. Im hoping it dont get worse. Ill just probably wetsand it in a few months pinstripe in then reclear. Wait a few months for the clear to harden. THen wet-sand and buff.
That being said though the only side that is bad rough is the passenger side. THe other panels are still decent.

Do you think there will be probs with me reclearing after a while?
 
#9 ·
No, reclearing will be fine. How many coats of clear did you put on between sandings" How much total clear did you apply, a gallon or more?
 
#11 ·
That isn't much clear, that is for sure. I do see that little compressor sitting there, did you use that? What kind of gun?

If you were using that little compressor and an HVLP gun that needed 15 CFM even one coat could have a ton of solvent in it.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Read this "Basics if Basics" Atomization (click here). It doesn't "create" any more solvents. What it does is no atomize so the paint (clear, primer, whatever) is not broken into smaller droplets allowing the "solvents" (thinners, reducers) to evaporate as the paint hits the car. CFM is the "V" in HVLP, VOLUME. That means the "amount" of air, not pressure but the amount. Sort of like comparing a super high pressure water hose with an ocean wave. You need a lot of air to "BUST" up the paint into smaller droplets as it leaves the gun. If you read the "Basics" thru, you will have a good idea.

Don't feel bad, this is a common error.
 
#14 ·
This problem has nothing to do with the clear! The dead giveaway?
How long it took to occur.
Solvent was comeing up from deep down.
A couple of things will cause this.

Very common on Black, Dark blues and some reds as they are slower drying colors and piling on, to short of flash between coats, using to big tip for base. using to fast reducer for the outside temp in base, ANYTHING to trap solvent in the base, in other words.

Second cause but more rare is a lacquer sealer being used or a sealers with trapped solvents.
 
#15 ·
Barry, I don't know about "nothing" with the clear,it appears to me the clear would be at fault as much as the rest. After seeing the compressor and the HVLP were used, I didn't think to address the rest. But you are dead right, the base, the primer, if that compressor/gun set up was used, there is a lot of solvents trapped in that film!
 
#19 · (Edited)
No, that would not cause that.
What that could cause with the trapped solvent is. die-back or loss of gloss in clear.

Different clears react different to extreme trapping of solvent in base or sealers. The better clears will a lot of times solvent pop
with the second coat of clear, mistakingly referred to as fish-eyes and can die back and/or develop orange peel over night..

Older type clears like he used are really more forgiving.
Considering his problem and the clear he used the solvent trapping was very extreme. He is really lucky he used the clear he did as now the only concern will be base-coat or clear delamination down the road.
 
#20 ·
BarryK said:
This problem has nothing to do with the clear! The dead giveaway?
How long it took to occur.
Solvent was comeing up from deep down.
A couple of things will cause this.

Very common on Black, Dark blues and some reds as they are slower drying colors and piling on, to short of flash between coats, using to big tip for base. using to fast reducer for the outside temp in base, ANYTHING to trap solvent in the base, in other words.

Second cause but more rare is a lacquer sealer being used or a sealers with trapped solvents.
Absolutely. You just ended an argument between my brother and I. We are currently stripping the paint off one of his Jimmy's. The (black) paint started to wrinkle about three to four weeks after it was painted. It got so bad the windows started to fall out. As we were stripping the paint (four months after paint) you could still smell the solvent in the base. The guy who painted it way over did the base coats, but he's a buddy and the paint supplier so no harm done as long as he grabs a scraper too. I'm glad this topic came up.
 
#21 ·
adtkart said:
Could it be because it was waxed before it was completely cured? Maybe it sealed it so it couldn't breathe? I don't know, am asking.
I have to disagree with Barry on this one. Not that I think it caused this but sealing off the paint with a wax too soon can do similar things.

I once had a customer who waxed his too soon after I painted it with acrylic enamel single stage. This was a real silicone sealer kind of "wax" so it sealed off the paint from any more flashing of solvents. Now, I don't think I even piled it on or anything like that, just good old slow cureing acyrlic enamel.

When he brought that truck back the paint was "chalk". You could literally take it down to primer with your finger nail like a cat scratch! It was wild. The mind blower was this was about a year later. The truck was his "baby" and had been in the garage, this also aided in the retaining of solvents because the paint needs air movment to "pull" the solvents out to some extent.

The kicker was I had sprayed a test panel when I sprayed the truck and tossed it on the roof of my shop! When this truck came back I remembered that test panel, went up on the roof and got it and the paint still looked great. Not only that but the hood was painted about three months after the rest of the truck when he damaged it. It was painted with different paint and had failed just the same as the rest of the truck. He admited (years later) that he had waxed the truck about six months after I painted it.
 
#22 ·
Acrylic enamel?

Wax will destroy it if not "Canuba"
Canuba won't affect it.

I thought I was responding to base/clear?

Base cannot wrinkle because of wax and why would it take so long to show up if it was the clear.
Yes he used a low grade clear but that helped him as that resin has a very long cure out time.
Bottom line if flash or mid solvents or tail solvents in clear were trapped it would have showed up with in 6-8 hours for a good clear and a lower grade within a couple of days.
This is a very common problem with the dark colors.

No way.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Barry, I am not disagreeing with you as I said. I am just saying waxing too soon CAN do some damage. As I said

"Not that I think it caused this but sealing off the paint with a wax too soon can do similar things".

But I have to say, the clear as well as the base was all applied with the same gun and that little compressor,it was ALL full of solvent.

He said he polished the cut and polished the clear, that "repaired" the failing that had no doubt started. Then after a few months (when EXACTLY did it start again we don't know) it had this wrinkly look.

Doesn't this make sense? I may be wrong, but it makes sense to me. Just as the example of the Mustang I gave. The clear, as well as the base was full of solvents.

Which of course is all a moot point being the base IS full of solvent as you pointed out, I am just thinking out loud. It still needs to be opened up and repolished.:)
 
#24 · (Edited)
We have a lot of professional painters on here and I’m sure they are already aware of this but I feel it is very important for the newer painters to understand what the real problem is here. I will try to explain as short and sweet as I can.

I have referred to dark colors in this post as being slower dry, not all dark colors but colors with a lot of black in their formula.

Black is made with Carbon; this comes to a paint company in power form. Most black paints the carbon will have been run through a grinder two to three times, the more its ground the blacker the black.
Now the problem is this, Carbon conduces electricity (you will never see a black power company truck!)
When you spray your basecoat the solvents dissipate in a ladder scale order, in your particular base you may have 2-3 different flash solvents and 1-3 mid grade solvents and a tail solvent. All these solvents have a different drop point so they will dissipate in an orderly fashion.
Now remember black conduces electricity so we have a problem with Dark blues some dark reds and a few yellows. As the solvents try to evaporate the static electricity is drawing the solvent back into the base – in short it’s fighting itself. For this reason black is you slowest drying color.
Now add in some other problems, such as spraying with a 1.5 tip, (to heavy) or high humidity (over 55%)
And now the solvent evaporation really slows down.
Or using to fast of a reducer in your base will skim the top surface to fast and also slow the rate of solvent evaporation.
You will also notice, I made reference to better clears having a different effect. Here are the symptoms.
In a good clear-such as a Hyper or semi hyper resin system or a normal urethane style clear.
Next morning after painted.
*Job was slick when done; now it looks orange peeled or wrinkled.
*Extreme die-back of gloss.
*Solvent pop.
*First coat of clear goes on good and second coat gets fish-eyes with in minutes of spraying.
These are not fish-eyes but extreme cases of solvent pop (solvent pop has about 4-5 different severity levels from looking like dirt in colors of white, black or grey to more advanced of looking like a full blown fish-eye.

Also I made reference to his only concern now is when the clear or base may lose adhesion.
Three things make clear peel.
1) Trapped solvent in base.
2) Letting base set to long before clearing (every company has their set amount of hours. 12-26 hours is the normal range).
3) Dry spraying of metallic to even out the metallic due to improper gun adjustment.

When ever you spray a black the flash times between coats should AT LEAST be doubled and same before applying clear.

I just made a black and the carbon is ground 7 times with different size shot, so its very tightly wrapped, the tech sheet calls for 60 minute flash time between coats.

The judge (Black) the black base was applied (3 coats) over two days and than sat overnight before I applied the clear. Air temp
was kept at 83 for four days and average metal temp was 75 degrees. with coldest metal (lower fenders and rockers) 72 degrees.
I used slow 885 reducer. (proper grade reducer would have been 870 but I like to go at least one grade slower under controlled conditions as this was.
May be overkill but this will be a $300,000 car and it must be perfect.

For further info on how solvents affect even the clarity or gloss level of the clear, see below article.

http://www.southernpolyurethanes.com/Creating the Perfect Paint Job.htm
 
#26 · (Edited)
Sorry about that!

Nothing I hate more than a long post, so did try to keep as short as I could.

To really have done the answer right it would have been four times longer at minimum.
Kinda did on a RIGHT TO KNOW basis, a lot of facts left out.

Bottom line is, NUMBER one screw up in paint is TRAPPED solvents.
Second is mis-mixing of activators and or old activators.
The rest is user screw up such as runs, dirt, bugs and bird of Paradise flying over the wet clear.

Ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top