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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 12-11-2004, 10:06 AM
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Contraction,
always looks worst than it really is. A 1500 wet-sand job and buffing will take care of it.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2004, 05:51 AM
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looking good though. Lots of things could cause it to "rough up" but one thing that'll fix it is a 1500-2000 sand and buff.

I see the wheel openings masked this time . . .nice!
http://www.a2zautoforums.com/showpos...9&postcount=14
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2004, 12:19 PM
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Could it be because it was waxed before it was completely cured? Maybe it sealed it so it couldn't breathe? I don't know, am asking.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2004, 12:43 PM
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No, that would not cause that.
What that could cause with the trapped solvent is. die-back or loss of gloss in clear.

Different clears react different to extreme trapping of solvent in base or sealers. The better clears will a lot of times solvent pop
with the second coat of clear, mistakingly referred to as fish-eyes and can die back and/or develop orange peel over night..

Older type clears like he used are really more forgiving.
Considering his problem and the clear he used the solvent trapping was very extreme. He is really lucky he used the clear he did as now the only concern will be base-coat or clear delamination down the road.

Last edited by BarryK; 12-12-2004 at 12:51 PM.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 12-14-2004, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BarryK
This problem has nothing to do with the clear! The dead giveaway?
How long it took to occur.
Solvent was comeing up from deep down.
A couple of things will cause this.

Very common on Black, Dark blues and some reds as they are slower drying colors and piling on, to short of flash between coats, using to big tip for base. using to fast reducer for the outside temp in base, ANYTHING to trap solvent in the base, in other words.

Second cause but more rare is a lacquer sealer being used or a sealers with trapped solvents.
Absolutely. You just ended an argument between my brother and I. We are currently stripping the paint off one of his Jimmy's. The (black) paint started to wrinkle about three to four weeks after it was painted. It got so bad the windows started to fall out. As we were stripping the paint (four months after paint) you could still smell the solvent in the base. The guy who painted it way over did the base coats, but he's a buddy and the paint supplier so no harm done as long as he grabs a scraper too. I'm glad this topic came up.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 12-14-2004, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by adtkart
Could it be because it was waxed before it was completely cured? Maybe it sealed it so it couldn't breathe? I don't know, am asking.
I have to disagree with Barry on this one. Not that I think it caused this but sealing off the paint with a wax too soon can do similar things.

I once had a customer who waxed his too soon after I painted it with acrylic enamel single stage. This was a real silicone sealer kind of "wax" so it sealed off the paint from any more flashing of solvents. Now, I don't think I even piled it on or anything like that, just good old slow cureing acyrlic enamel.

When he brought that truck back the paint was "chalk". You could literally take it down to primer with your finger nail like a cat scratch! It was wild. The mind blower was this was about a year later. The truck was his "baby" and had been in the garage, this also aided in the retaining of solvents because the paint needs air movment to "pull" the solvents out to some extent.

The kicker was I had sprayed a test panel when I sprayed the truck and tossed it on the roof of my shop! When this truck came back I remembered that test panel, went up on the roof and got it and the paint still looked great. Not only that but the hood was painted about three months after the rest of the truck when he damaged it. It was painted with different paint and had failed just the same as the rest of the truck. He admited (years later) that he had waxed the truck about six months after I painted it.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 12-14-2004, 08:13 PM
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Acrylic enamel?

Wax will destroy it if not "Canuba"
Canuba won't affect it.

I thought I was responding to base/clear?

Base cannot wrinkle because of wax and why would it take so long to show up if it was the clear.
Yes he used a low grade clear but that helped him as that resin has a very long cure out time.
Bottom line if flash or mid solvents or tail solvents in clear were trapped it would have showed up with in 6-8 hours for a good clear and a lower grade within a couple of days.
This is a very common problem with the dark colors.

No way.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 12-14-2004, 08:33 PM
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Barry, I am not disagreeing with you as I said. I am just saying waxing too soon CAN do some damage. As I said

"Not that I think it caused this but sealing off the paint with a wax too soon can do similar things".

But I have to say, the clear as well as the base was all applied with the same gun and that little compressor,it was ALL full of solvent.

He said he polished the cut and polished the clear, that "repaired" the failing that had no doubt started. Then after a few months (when EXACTLY did it start again we don't know) it had this wrinkly look.

Doesn't this make sense? I may be wrong, but it makes sense to me. Just as the example of the Mustang I gave. The clear, as well as the base was full of solvents.

Which of course is all a moot point being the base IS full of solvent as you pointed out, I am just thinking out loud. It still needs to be opened up and repolished.

Last edited by MARTINSR; 12-14-2004 at 08:42 PM.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2004, 06:26 AM
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We have a lot of professional painters on here and Iím sure they are already aware of this but I feel it is very important for the newer painters to understand what the real problem is here. I will try to explain as short and sweet as I can.

I have referred to dark colors in this post as being slower dry, not all dark colors but colors with a lot of black in their formula.

Black is made with Carbon; this comes to a paint company in power form. Most black paints the carbon will have been run through a grinder two to three times, the more its ground the blacker the black.
Now the problem is this, Carbon conduces electricity (you will never see a black power company truck!)
When you spray your basecoat the solvents dissipate in a ladder scale order, in your particular base you may have 2-3 different flash solvents and 1-3 mid grade solvents and a tail solvent. All these solvents have a different drop point so they will dissipate in an orderly fashion.
Now remember black conduces electricity so we have a problem with Dark blues some dark reds and a few yellows. As the solvents try to evaporate the static electricity is drawing the solvent back into the base Ė in short itís fighting itself. For this reason black is you slowest drying color.
Now add in some other problems, such as spraying with a 1.5 tip, (to heavy) or high humidity (over 55%)
And now the solvent evaporation really slows down.
Or using to fast of a reducer in your base will skim the top surface to fast and also slow the rate of solvent evaporation.
You will also notice, I made reference to better clears having a different effect. Here are the symptoms.
In a good clear-such as a Hyper or semi hyper resin system or a normal urethane style clear.
Next morning after painted.
*Job was slick when done; now it looks orange peeled or wrinkled.
*Extreme die-back of gloss.
*Solvent pop.
*First coat of clear goes on good and second coat gets fish-eyes with in minutes of spraying.
These are not fish-eyes but extreme cases of solvent pop (solvent pop has about 4-5 different severity levels from looking like dirt in colors of white, black or grey to more advanced of looking like a full blown fish-eye.

Also I made reference to his only concern now is when the clear or base may lose adhesion.
Three things make clear peel.
1) Trapped solvent in base.
2) Letting base set to long before clearing (every company has their set amount of hours. 12-26 hours is the normal range).
3) Dry spraying of metallic to even out the metallic due to improper gun adjustment.

When ever you spray a black the flash times between coats should AT LEAST be doubled and same before applying clear.

I just made a black and the carbon is ground 7 times with different size shot, so its very tightly wrapped, the tech sheet calls for 60 minute flash time between coats.

The judge (Black) the black base was applied (3 coats) over two days and than sat overnight before I applied the clear. Air temp
was kept at 83 for four days and average metal temp was 75 degrees. with coldest metal (lower fenders and rockers) 72 degrees.
I used slow 885 reducer. (proper grade reducer would have been 870 but I like to go at least one grade slower under controlled conditions as this was.
May be overkill but this will be a $300,000 car and it must be perfect.

For further info on how solvents affect even the clarity or gloss level of the clear, see below article.

http://www.southernpolyurethanes.com...aint%20Job.htm

Last edited by BarryK; 12-15-2004 at 09:01 AM.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2004, 08:21 PM
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Too much information!

BarryK,

You are real insitefull, but it scares the crap out of me sometimes thinking of the "what if's" on my paint job.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 12-16-2004, 04:19 AM
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Sorry about that!

Nothing I hate more than a long post, so did try to keep as short as I could.

To really have done the answer right it would have been four times longer at minimum.
Kinda did on a RIGHT TO KNOW basis, a lot of facts left out.

Bottom line is, NUMBER one screw up in paint is TRAPPED solvents.
Second is mis-mixing of activators and or old activators.
The rest is user screw up such as runs, dirt, bugs and bird of Paradise flying over the wet clear.

Ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Last edited by BarryK; 12-16-2004 at 10:04 AM.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2004, 10:18 AM
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I hope you waited at least a month to buff it out and apply wax.
if not the clear will do as you mentioned.
this is according to a body man i know.
reason for this is that the clear is soft and degassing.
for about 2 weeks after application
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2004, 11:08 PM
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I know its not the sealer/base/ or color changing paint that caused the wrinkling because the sealer was dusted on very lightly and had 50 mins to dry. The black base was also dusted on in 2 coats. It was then wetsanded and was able to cure for 3 hours cause my folks had to turn the water heater back on. Then the color changing paint was dusted on because its like a pearl and is 160 a quart.

The thing that makes me think it was the clear was because instead of reducing the clear 8-4-1. I reduced it 8-8-1/2. 8 parts clear 8 parts reducer and 1/2 parts hardener. That with a slow reducer I think may have caused problems. THe clear lay-ed down great but just is a little rough now.

The other weird thing is the roughness is on the passenger side and not the drivers side.
I put 1 more coat of clear on the passenger side just to use up the materials and not waste pain.

I think the compressor and me messing around with the paint mixing directions is what went wrong though.

I will be getting new equipment after Christmas anyhow.

like I said the roughness is on only on side of the car the passenger side doors and rear fender. THe small little bumps are noticeable but im sure can be taken down easy with about 6 strokes of 2000 grit. THey are that small.

The only thing thats freaking me out is that I see show cars out here in Vegas that has cut-buff jobs that look rough after a while also.. I dunno ..

This paint game is tricky but ill get it.


http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=90977
Cool harbor fright has a nice low CFM paint gun

Thanks, Chris

Last edited by ChrisMiddleron; 12-24-2004 at 11:21 PM.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2004, 06:06 PM
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Ahhh im pretty sure I found the reason why my paint wrinkled and now I understand what my dad was trying to say.

We have about 100 gallons of air we can store in our compressor and it catches up really easy.

The paint gun uses 10 cfm and our compressor pumps 6.8 cfm. Even though the paint gun will use allot more air.





With flash time in-between coats and the compressor always caught up really easy. In a minute or 2 it would be filled again.

I get what ya ll are tying to say though.

The main problem I think my paint job wrinkled on one side is because when it was out in the sun my dads car which is always out there and was blocking that side from the suns heat.

My brothers CRX was painted during the summer and we used the same reduction, paint, sealer and everything.. BUT!!! It was summertime.. His car was sitting out in the sun 8 hours a day in Las Vegas heat and all the reducer evaporated easier cause of the heat.

Then after a few weeks of that heat the paint really cured. Then they lightly wetsanded it and polished. It hasn't had problems at all.

What do yall think? As you can see in the pic below it does still have great shine... but maybe it just dident cure good enough and as the reducers began to flash in the clear the texture got rough.



Note the paint was done...... wet-sanded and buffed 1 week after the paint was sprayed with not much time out in the sun.

Im just trying to learn what went wrong....

Do yall think that coulda been it?
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2004, 10:45 PM
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Chris, you need to read the responses to your posts better. Barry and I both have been telling you exactly what you have just said. ALL of these factors had something to do it. You have layed out a number of the reasons we have said you can end up with trapped solvents.

1. Too little CFM (poorly atomized paint,clear)
2. Wrong reducer temp for shop temp (it flashes off too slow)
3. We didn't mention it, but OVER REDUCING (again, more solvent means more to flash)


The heat on the one side certainly would make a difference, but you also added more clear to the "colder" side right? Sooooooo, you had the colder temp, over reduced, AND you added another coat.
ALL of these things will cause the exact same thing, trapped solvent.
Along with the lack of CFM, you had "all the planets aligned" for failure.

Even though it appears the black paint didn't play as big a role in this as Barry thought, ALL of the same information he said still applys just as we both have told you. And in fact, even though you waited a good long time between coats of the black, it was shot with too little CFM and the shop was too cold just as I said. This created trapped solvents just as he explained black will is more inclined to do.
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