welding cast to steel - Page 3 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> General Rodding Tech
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #31 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2010, 06:25 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,908
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuthnCustoms
Some have great success with just blasting a 70 series wire or rod in the housing or welding the axle tubing to the center housing with just that,no preheat or post heat,but...others have failures,and even within minutes of the weld cooling on its own,they heard the ole familiar "crack" noise and looked.sure enough a crack on the housing side..

The reason some have had great success with E70xx rods or 70 series wire is that most of those housings are cast steel and a rod like an E7018 or other alloy steel filler is what is most compatible with it. The "other failures" that crack within minutes and have that familiar "tinking" or cracking noise are usually cast iron and are totally incompatible with steel rods, a steel housing will not crack like that when welded with a steel rod unless an extremely poor welding technique is used in which case it will fail no matter what rod is used. There is no sound reason to use something exotic like the Certainum 707 (which BTW turned out to be the same rod you were referring to in the earlier post) since a properly done alloy steel weld will exceed the base metal strength anyway, it would work but it would be an unnecessary expense and problem to find. There is a heck of a lot of difference between a high Nickel rod meant for alloy steels and an even higher (much higher) Nickle rod for cast iron which made up of mostly Nickle with most of the remainder being iron. Those exotic high Nickle rods, while being a better choice than a steel rod for iron castings, also contain a lot of Chromium that works well with most high tensile steels but is a very poor alloy for joining cast iron.


The bottom line is that using some of the exotic alloys in the belief that they will work no matter what the housing is made of is a mistake, they would simply be overkill for steel housings and a very poor choice for cast iron. The proper way to do this, or any other weld for that matter, is to determine what the heck it is you are welding and select the right welding filler in the first place! Those exotic alloys do have their place, welding Manganese steels, high Nickle/Chromium steels and other exotic alloys but you are not going to find any of those steels in an axle housing! It is so simple to determine whether an axle housing (or spindle) is cast iron or a steel casting that it just makes no sense not to weld it with the correct rod. Basically all that is required is to hit the piece with a grinder and in seconds you will know whether it is steel or cast iron, if unsure of what the sparks are supposed to look like simply grind any piece of known steel first such as an old bolt or even a nail. Once you see the steel grinding sparks then hit the piece to be identified you will instantly know, there is such an extreme difference between sparks from steel and sparks from cast iron there is simply no chance of making a mistake. Another way is to cut a small piece with a torch, if it cuts easily then it is steel and should be welded with a steel rod, if it is extremely hard to cut or impossible to cut (most times it will be impossible) then it is cast iron and should be welded with a Nickle rod for iron castings. Save the exotic alloy rods for exotic alloys and stainless steels. They really do a fantastic job on stainless steel but then alloys like that are what they are meant for, they are not meant for nor recommended by the manufacturers for iron castings.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #32 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2010, 06:43 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Jax Fl
Posts: 383
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 13
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
A great source for a small utilty axle is the first generation Plymouth Voyager, Dodge Caravan, Chrysler Town & Country, rear straight axles. You can pick one up for around a hundred dollars. Comes with brakes (if you choose to use them) and springs.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #33 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2010, 08:15 PM
SuthnCustoms's Avatar
Crazy Ole Ironhead
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Georgia
Age: 53
Posts: 235
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
The reason some have had great success with E70xx rods or
The proper way to do this, or any other weld for that matter, is to determine what the heck it is you are welding and select the right welding filler in the first place!
This right here is EXACTLY why it has becomes a battle back and forth with many weldors,fabricators and auto builders over and over that i've personaly seen online..AND in person..

No one can tell EXACTLY what type of composition it was made of,there is no records of it,,but there IS several different types and grades of steel castings used in those differentials..thats what the big delima is all about,so more than enough folks feel safer to use a high nickel rod for that purpose,plus the high nickel rod never shrinks much during the cooling,leaving a less stressfull weldmant
All you're explanations make ALOT of sense to me,but again,most guys are worried if the cast center housing is exactly what they THINK it MIGHT be,so they opt out to the high nickel rod...which i am one of them and have great success with the pre-heat and post-heat of 400 and weld with nickel rod,but the best way to do it is to do at least the whole center section and that can be hard to keep at that temp all at once..lol..i use a torpedo heater to get the whole thing up to temp,weld in sections,put the heater back on the center section until i get a reading of 400 with a temp stick,then cover with a few thick weld blankets and old blankets on top of that,let cool slowly from there..i know..alot of work but i like to be safe than sorry then spend another few grand on a whole new axle setup because the weld failed..i've seen it..
And those axles i referred to that broke,were 8.8's out of ford explorers,which a very common swap for a Jeep and 4x4's since from 95-2001 they came with disk brakes and alot of factory 4.10 gearing in them ,plus they are very short and the bigger axles in them than the mustangs,which also make great dirt track setups and the 8.8 is a VERY stout differential for what it is and how much lighter it is than a dana 60 or GM 14 bolt and MUCH easier to find now a days than a ford 9".( don't get me wrong,i would never compare the difference in an 8.8 and dana 60 strength,just the option of the 8'8's strength and availability for what it is and how mucb lighter it is)
Any 8.8 i've seen or heard of is cast steel,along with dana 60's,dana 44's and GM Corporate 14 bolts.
There has been so much research on finding out EXACTLY what grade these steel castings are by so MANY people,but could never find an exact answer anywhere as to what they are exactly...

And i've still YET to find or even hear of a differential made of cast iron anywhere,not saying it never happened,i just never seen it yet.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #34 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2010, 02:07 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,908
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuthnCustoms
This right here is EXACTLY why it has becomes a battle back and forth with many weldors,fabricators and auto builders over and over that i've personaly seen online..AND in person..

No one can tell EXACTLY what type of composition it was made of,

It is not going to made of any exotic alloys so the exact composition simply does not matter! It is certainly going to be a common steel casting and will NEVER be anything that would require anything more than a good low hydrogen welding rod, you seem to think there is some kind of special welding required to weld steel castings but other than a few minor differences it is the same as welding any other steel. Hundreds of thousands of those things are welded with common low hydrogen welding rods and if done by a competent welder there will be no problems and if welded by an incompetent welder it does not matter what they use, of the astronomical number of these housings welded how many people use something like we are talking about here? There simply is no reason to suggest someone go out and pay the ridiculous prices for those welding rods to weld a common steel casting like an axle housing! Get real here we are not talking about welding on the space shuttle, there are millions of welds made on construction and mining machinery steel castings with low hydrogen rod and almost all of it is probably better steel than what is used in those housings!


If there is a cracking problem with the low hydrogen welding on one of those housings, especially if it is cracking as it cools, then the problem is the man holding the welding rod not the rod being used! Like I said save those exotic rods for what they are meant for and weld steel castings with the rods that are sold for welding steel castings.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #35 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2010, 03:28 PM
SuthnCustoms's Avatar
Crazy Ole Ironhead
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Georgia
Age: 53
Posts: 235
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
It is not going to made of any exotic alloys so the exact composition simply does not matter! It is certainly going to be a common steel casting and will NEVER be anything that would require anything more than a good low hydrogen welding rod, you seem to think there is some kind of special welding required to weld steel castings but other than a few minor differences it is the same as welding any other steel.Thats why a completely different filler metal is also used on a Cast Iron repair,it's not the same type of deposition,it's nickel so it gets a good addmixture but most of all it won't shrink causing stress within the weldmant and causing the brittle Cast Iron to break away,same prinicipal in welding cast STEEL to mild steel tube Hundreds of thousands of those things are welded with common low hydrogen welding rods and if done by a competent welder there will be no problems and if welded by an incompetent welder it does not matter what they use, of the astronomical number of these housings welded how many people use something like we are talking about here? There simply is no reason to suggest someone go out and pay the ridiculous prices for those welding rods to weld a common steel casting like an axle housing! Get real here we are not talking about welding on the space shuttle, there are millions of welds made on construction and mining machinery steel castings with low hydrogen rod and almost all of it is probably better steel than what is used in those housings!
Good point! and they know exactly what type of cast steel they are,well recorded and known because of the regular repairs needed on them,plus they are made in a much higher standard environment rather than fast and highly produced auto manufacture differential for street use,so there's that question of what they are really made of and the process?Plus thoss casting on those machines are of a higher grade..right..whole different animal than automotive i would think..?


If there is a cracking problem with the low hydrogen welding on one of those housings, especially if it is cracking as it cools, then the problem is the man holding the welding rod not the rod being used! Like I said save those exotic rods for what they are meant for and weld steel castings with the rods that are sold for welding steel castings.
I've never had any of mine fail,at all,but always used nickel rod with the pre-heat.
The only failures i've ever seen was someone using a 70 series,and this includes MIG and Fluxcore and Stick.
The main problem is the cast will take very different to the heat of the weldmant as compared to the common low grade mild steel beside it on the axle tube.
Then on top of that,still unkown to how that cast will react to the weld filler,and unkown process of what has been used in it,and what actual process of the way it was made,several different manufature processes out there,these things were made cheap as possible.

Here's a couple reads on the net of others who has had the same question arise and even a guy who uses that ESAB high siliconewire i was talking of..
http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/techart...ing/index.html

http://www.jeepbbs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4515


Same old dilema,some say use low-hy,some say don't,etc etc.
It's pretty much come down one weldors opinion to the others as to what process and filler metal to use...
I like the insurance of the nickel rod to have that much more insurance i'm not going to be buying a whole new axle,gears,lockers,axles...etc if it breaks under extreme use,and when those break under extreme usage,you can pretty much garauntee something if not all of it is also going to break inside..$$$$$$ down the drain.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #36 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2010, 05:13 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,908
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Again, it will work but there is no point in using it. If you feel like it is insurance using a filler of a totally dissimilar composition than the base fine, in the case of something like that 707 it will most likely work but so will will a low hydrogen rod like a 7018. On high tensile castings 8018 c1 or 9018 is commonly used when high Nickle alloy is present, not a glorified stainless rod like those "super rods", but even these alloys will not be found in an axle housing so 7018 or 70S wire is normally used and provides a good match to the base metal. If someone else wants to try this rod then have at it, it will probably work at least as good as the low hydrogen-that is if they don't choke down when they get the price on 10 lbs of the stuff! You can argue all day that the extra cost is cheap insurance but I have used enough of both kinds of rod to know that the advantage simply is not there. The stuff is sold for stainless welding, manganese castings, attaching manganese to carbon steel and some exotic steels but it simply has no advantage for common steel castings. Go ahead use it if you like it's your money after welding heavy machinery steel castings for nearly forty years and having access to both types of rod I know better.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #37 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2010, 05:26 PM
SuthnCustoms's Avatar
Crazy Ole Ironhead
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Georgia
Age: 53
Posts: 235
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
oldred
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #38 (permalink)  
Old 09-21-2010, 01:40 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: California USA
Posts: 2
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
410 stainless steel welding wires

Iíve read in internet, how about the 410 stainless steel welding rod. Like most non-stainless steel it can be hardened by a heat treatment. Grade 410 is the basic martensitic stainless steel. Martensitic stainless steels are optimized for high hardness, and other properties are to some degree compromised. Corrosion resistance of the martensitic grades is lower than that of the common austenitic grades.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #39 (permalink)  
Old 09-21-2010, 08:36 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,908
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by danneva
Iíve read in internet, how about the 410 stainless steel welding rod. Like most non-stainless steel it can be hardened by a heat treatment. Grade 410 is the basic martensitic stainless steel. Martensitic stainless steels are optimized for high hardness, and other properties are to some degree compromised. Corrosion resistance of the martensitic grades is lower than that of the common austenitic grades.

Great for welding stainless or Manganese steels and it would weld steel castings such as what is found in an axle housing but low hydrogen would work better for that, a much better match to the housing material. If you are talking about welding cast iron to steel it would be a very poor choice and the normally used Ni55 would be much better, there is no point in trying to "reinvent the wheel" here the rods used for these common materials are what is used by industry everyday and they are engineered to provide the best overall results. There are special circumstances where special alloy filler materials may provide some advantages and some specialized stainless fillers, such as the Certainum 707 we were talking about earlier, do perform well when used on steel but except in specialized instances they offer no real advantage over the proper low hydrogen rod (if using a stick welder). Using a stainless filler like 410 wire to weld steel to steel, even if it is to a steel casting, is not a good idea and is not what that filler is engineered for. If welding stainless to carbon steel then 410 wire would be a viable choice but again if welding steel to steel use a suitable low hydrogen electrode and for welding cast iron to steel use the proper Nickel electrode based on intended use and whether or not it has to be machined afterword.


Basic rule is to try to match base and filler chemistry as close as practical with consideration given to filler characteristics, tensile strength, yield, etc. Like I said specialized alloys can sometimes be used but a properly made weld using the right low hydrogen filler on something like an axle housing steel casting will exceed the base metal's strength and the determining factor for success is going to be method not the filler chosen. Trying to mix and match alloys without a thorough understanding of the metallurgy involved is just playing back yard chemist/engineer and in the case of that axle housing is just asking for a disaster!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #40 (permalink)  
Old 09-21-2010, 05:35 PM
SuthnCustoms's Avatar
Crazy Ole Ironhead
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Georgia
Age: 53
Posts: 235
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Any stainless rod would be a poor choice for this application,mostly because of how much stainless shrinks and pulls,causing ALOT of stress in the weldmant.

As far as the nickel rod being used in this application,,it is STILL a GREAT choice over low-hy..for the fact again...those cast steel housings are not all the same and no one knows exactly the process and what is exactly in them...it reacts very different from the mild steel tube beside it...plus the main factor of less stress with a nickel rod,it doesn't shrink or pull much at all....

And as far as them being so expensive?..even at 3.00 a rod,i could weld both sides up 100% with at MOST..3 rods...9.00 for a peice of mind..
Here's another factor in those jobs,,,those mild steel tubes will warp out of place very easily when welded,you and anyone else knows the importance of how straight those axle tubes need to be for the bearings and axle alignment,nickel rods won't pull much,,helping in keeping it aligned during the process.

Yea i know..always use a JIG,,which myself i ALWAYS do with something like this,,but most don't even know what that is,let alone how to make one and make it effeceint...

Most of these guys just want to heat it up a little,,and blast a weld into it and be done.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #41 (permalink)  
Old 09-21-2010, 06:30 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,908
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Just a note on the jig, always brace the parts being welded (any parts not just an axle housing) as close to the weld as practical and NEVER at the end of the tube away from the weld! If a part is clamped down, just for instance, even a foot away from the weld it may seem to be holding straight enough but when you release the clamp the tension that has built up along the length between the weld and clamp contact points will allow the parts to spring out of shape. Even if a part is tack welded in the jig it will spring out of shape sometimes violently when the tack is cut loose unless it is held close to the weld. If a part such as the axle housing/tube is clamped right at the weld in addition to a few inches away there will be almost no tension built up and the parts will spring little if any at all when the clamps/tacks are released. A jig that holds the parts right at the weld will warp very little or not at all, a jig that only holds the parts a foot to two feet from the weld will likely spring quite a bit when released and parts clamped or tacked 3 feet or more from the weld,,,,why bother?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #42 (permalink)  
Old 09-21-2010, 06:46 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,908
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuthnCustoms

And as far as them being so expensive?..even at 3.00 a rod,i could weld both sides up 100% with at MOST..3 rods...9.00 for a peice of mind..


You know a place that sells rods one at a time? Although they may be available that way the smallest package I have seen (in specialty rod) is 5 lbs and they are hard to get, ten pound packages are far more common.



Again the differences in composition in an axle housing casting are not a game breaker there will be nothing exotic in these castings and with proper preheat (regardless of the rod used) low hydrogen will not present a problem with warping any more than than most anything else. Indeed a rod like a 7018 is very forgiving in this respect and is probably the easiest filler to use to get a sound weld if using stick. Personally my choice for welding something like that would be MIG welding with a duel shield wire in this case Hobart Excell Arc 71 which is about the best wire I have ever used on steel castings. The neat part is that this stuff is now available in .035 so guys with smaller home shop type MIGs can use it, probably the easiest to use wire on the market. It will bridge gaps with no effort at all and overhead welding is very easy, unlike any other wire I have ever used. Except for body work (it is not small enough for body panels even at .035) this is the only wire I use for car/truck welding anymore. Frames, hangers, drive shafts, suspension parts, etc can all be welded with this easy to use high tensile strength wire and C25 gas. It makes a really nice looking weld that has a fairly heavy slag that tends to peel off as the weld cools, usually any remaining slag is brushed off and multi-pass welding can be done without slag inclusions with no special effort at all.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent General Rodding Tech posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
welder reccomendations? rally4x4racer Garage - Tools 32 10-14-2008 09:00 PM
Welding Cast Iron BigBlockBanjo General Rodding Tech 11 02-16-2007 08:32 PM
Parasol Metal body filler. x711 Body - Exterior 16 02-14-2006 09:47 AM
whats the big deal with cast steel? 406 ss monte Engine 19 02-13-2005 09:31 AM
welding a cast iron engine block pieese General Rodding Tech 11 01-19-2005 06:46 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.