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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 04-27-2006, 03:37 AM
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Oldred. I'm not sure I would agree with flux core not being stronger than say 7018 Which was one of two rods we were allow to use in California with all the earth quakes stuff. I believe the flux core we were using had a higher tensile strength that 7018 and 7018 is 70,000 pound tensile strength So I will have to ask my brother what flux core wire we were using. I just can't remember.
I agree flux core is not the correct process for suspension parts.

As far as suspension goes I know the truck frames were heat treated and when we mounted the mixer on the truck chassis we had to preheat the frame rail with a rose bud and a red heat stick. Then when the heat stick melted it was ready to weld. We welded with 7018. if the heat was off just a little the weld would split down the middle when it started to cool.

Now I found the process of welding on a truck frame to be incorrect. At the time I thought that by heating the frame would ruin the heat treating an weaken the frames. But the good old Engineers said no problem you would think we would have cover the frame to let them cool slowly.
Now on the dump trucks it was a bolt up angle clips with spring bushing no welding. Which I found interesting Engineering. so my question always was why weld on one and not the other. I have been two a couple of spring fab shop and watch them weld crack spring leaf with 7018 back together and re heat treat them. I found this to be weird but I guess it was cheaper than replacing the leafs.

Oldred, I'm just interested in the mining deal. With all the mining problem of late. I'm wondering what where you weld process you use on the equipment you fabricated or repaired?

Craig

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 04-27-2006, 09:03 AM
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Don't know of any mining problems related to welding but you have brought up a point that does relate to street rod welding and that would be which rod or wire to use. When someone says "stick" welding that covers a great deal of territory with rod and wire tensile strengths running from 60,000 to 120,000 but tensile strength is not the whole story. There are various alloys within each group that change the characteristics to meet certain demands so to say "7018", "8018" or "9018" does not tell the complete story either since there are several variations of each just as there are variations of most other classes of wires and rods. In the case of the dragline booms I mentioned earlier (which would most closely relate to say frame welding) we were required to use 7018 and that would be my choice for welding a street rod frame however I am surprised that someone would chose it to weld a spring On large steel castings such as bucket lips some of the repairs could be up 14" thick and it depended on the alloy which rod or wire was chosen, Marion power shovel specified E9018M while EASCO, due to a different alloy, specified 7018 for a similar repair on their equipment, point being here is that there is no one size fits all. However fluxcore was NEVER chosen anywhere for anything except for wear plates and other non-critical areas because we learned years ago that even with attention paid to welding techniques, that is using all the tricks, this stuff was a loser. As a general rule 7018 would be the best all-around choice for someone welding on a street rod (E70 class wire for MIG/TIG) but in the event one might be required to weld on a steel casting (spindle maybe?), Notice I said STEEL NOT CAST IRON!, Then there may be some benefit from using E8018 or equivalent there. As for welding springs this is simply not a job that can be normally accomplished with any degree of success on a street rod so just replace the problem and be done with it. Again you make a good point about how to properly weld a frame and that is to use controlled preheating and cooling along with proper welding techniques, this is also very important with suspension components. Trying to cover the proper methods for welding and precise selection of filler rod for all situations is simply not practical and if someone needs this info it would best be dealt with on an individual basis.

I think maybe you are missing my point about structural steel welding- again the structure itself is designed to carry the load but the weld must of course be sound regardless of what is used, therefore the inspection. The flux core is sufficiently strong and has the characteristics to meet the demands in this application but that does not mean it is better or even equal to other methods, just more practical in this case. I am not saying a flux core weld is inherently weak I am saying that in a critical weld situation where the weld carries most or all of the load, unlike a designed load bearing structure such as a building, the flux core is inferior to properly done stick, MIG, TIG or Duel-Sheild and especially in the case of small low amp machines could cause serious problems when used in critical areas.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 04-27-2006, 01:01 PM
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Interesting Well said, With regards to mining I was hopping you could go into more detail on the mining equipment and why flux core wire was not allowed I was looking around last night a little but could not fine a tensile strength on flux core wire. Only this wire was good for structural Steel Ok that was help full so what does that mean?. I wanted info lol duh!
But the engineering is what I finding interesting which is driving the type of welding we use. On the heavy equipment or Structural Steel
Ive never worked on The really heavy equipment, I did work for a small mining equipment manufacture that made the smaller stuff like cone crusher. shaker screens and storage bunkers we also did cement plants, most of that was mig or stick 7018
I have done some backhoe repair work and hard facing of the buckets. but thats about it.

So In California It's interesting we could weld with flux core. columns connection clips where the beam would bolt between the column and those clips were caring the sheer load of the beam and the roof. So I would think there would have to be allot the tensile strength to carry the sheer load. The other interesting thing is because of the new earth codes you bolt and weld the beam to keep the bolts or the weld's from failing a seismic event.

And last what I'm getting out of all of this is that depending on the application and year of engineering is what work for one application may not work for the other.
Oldred like you said so well there are a lot of factor to consider when welding and just using any old welder or rod is not correct.
I find my self watch the power block on Saturday and wonder why 90% of the welding is done with Mig. I to am a firm believer in using 7018 to.
Engineering in the hot rod world really has no set standard only I use this and it work for me seem A little ifey to me. Is there dot standards for after market parts? and welding?

Craig
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 04-27-2006, 06:57 PM
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Instant messaging, PRIVATE messaging, and talking on the telephone

Chevy and oldred, please see above.
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Old 04-27-2006, 07:09 PM
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What are you talking about???

Craig
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Old 04-27-2006, 07:44 PM
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I think he means we are getting a bit off subject here and I guess he may be right. This forum is for cars and street rods, not bridges and power shovels and I think we have just about beat that welding wire subject to death so I will hush up now.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 04-27-2006, 08:08 PM
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Heck I was enjoying are chat well heck mabe we should start an off topic section for us old welder.

Craig
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