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Old 03-08-2011, 07:49 AM
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welding a header flange to the head?

I have a set of heavy water jacketed stainless headers for my marine SBC, iron stahl adapter flange, and dart iron platinum heads.

I have three concerns I was hoping to get advice on.

1) I am worried that repeated slamming up and down will rock/pivot on the standard exhaust bolt pattern and simply not hold up, since they are all in a straight line.
Is it possible, advisable, wise to bolt the header flange in place, weld it up to the heads and smooth out the exhaust port?

2) does this forum's advice for standard mesh header gaskets hold for boats?

3) what is the proper way to port/gasket match a square flange to a round hole? I saw some discussion on this but didn't comprehend.


Thank you in advance.
Please feel free to be critical.
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Old 03-08-2011, 08:12 AM
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welding ??????????

I think you are not too swift,NOBODY welds exhaust manifolds to a head,boats have been using water cooled exhaust manifolds,almost forever,if youre worried about the exhaust manifold coming loose thru bouncing around in the boat,get the locking header bolts.dont worry about matching the ports to the head ! ONLY if youre boat will run over 100 mph,would you be able to see an improvement (though i doubt it) if youre worried about exhaust gaskets,use the dead soft copper gaskets,dont create a problem,where there is none. (ive been running boats for 60 years,so i think im qualified to give you the above info)

Last edited by boatbob2; 03-08-2011 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 03-08-2011, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boatbob2
I think you are not too swift,NOBODY welds exhaust manifolds to a head,boats have been using water cooled exhaust manifolds,almost forever,if youre worried about the exhaust manifold coming loose thru bouncing around in the boat,get the locking header bolts.
X2 I agree i would never weld the headers to the head locking header bolt's is the way i would go also.


Cole
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Old 03-08-2011, 08:43 AM
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If you really want suspenders with your belt then an additional bracket to brace the headers may be in order..that pice may need to be fabricated..

Sam
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Old 03-08-2011, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boatbob2
I think you are not too swift,NOBODY welds exhaust manifolds to a head,boats have been using water cooled exhaust manifolds,almost forever,if youre worried about the exhaust manifold coming loose thru bouncing around in the boat,get the locking header bolts.dont worry about matching the ports to the head ! ONLY if youre boat will run over 100 mph,would you be able to see an improvement (though i doubt it) if youre worried about exhaust gaskets,use the dead soft copper gaskets,dont create a problem,where there is none. (ive been running boats for 60 years,so i think im qualified to give you the above info)
Ayuh,... Times 3....
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Old 03-08-2011, 02:20 PM
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Thanks for the warm welcome to the board!

The title erroneously says "welding a header flange" it should read:
"welding a header ADAPTER"

I am NOT asking if I should weld stainless headers to the iron heads.
I am asking about welding the iron adapter flange/plate or whatever its called to the iron heads.
Basically extending the exhaust ports a little bit.
Then I only have to worry about one set of exhaust gaskets not two, please refer to the picture previously attached.

So, to ask the question correctly: Is it detrimental to weld an exhaust header adapter to the heads then bolt the headers to the secure adapter flange?
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Old 03-08-2011, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d1mbu1b
Thanks for the warm welcome to the board!

The title erroneously says "welding a header flange" it should read:
"welding a header ADAPTER"

I am NOT asking if I should weld stainless headers to the iron heads.
I am asking about welding the iron adapter flange/plate or whatever its called to the iron heads.
Basically extending the exhaust ports a little bit.
Then I only have to worry about one set of exhaust gaskets not two, please refer to the picture previously attached.

So, to ask the question correctly: Is it detrimental to weld an exhaust header adapter to the heads then bolt the headers to the secure adapter flange?
Your still welding on the heads no matter how you look at it and in my book that's a JMO someone else might say different but not me i would not do it just use the two sets of gaskets.IMHO

Cole
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Old 03-08-2011, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
So, to ask the question correctly: Is it detrimental to weld an exhaust header adapter to the heads then bolt the headers to the secure adapter flange?
Ayuh,... That's what I thought you said,...

still no way in 'ell it'll work...
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Old 03-08-2011, 06:22 PM
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Welding cast iron is tricky, even for a pro. I'd advise you to forget this idea, you are simply overthinking this. Trying to weld the steel adapter flange to the iron head is ever more prone to problems than trying to just repair cast iron by welding.

You've got six 3/8" bolts holding a 12 lb header. Six 3/8" bolts hold the engine into the chassis/boat at the motor mounts...and you're worried about what holds the header...

Dirt Sprint cars use the same adapter flange, and pretty much the same style header...I'm willing to bet their stuff takes more of a pounding, and they don't have a problem with this flange and the header.
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Old 03-08-2011, 06:55 PM
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Welding a header flange to the head

Quote:
Originally Posted by d1mbu1b
I have a set of heavy water jacketed stainless headers for my marine SBC, iron stahl adapter flange, and dart iron platinum heads.

I have three concerns I was hoping to get advice on.

1) I am worried that repeated slamming up and down will rock/pivot on the standard exhaust bolt pattern and simply not hold up, since they are all in a straight line.
Is it possible, advisable, wise to bolt the header flange in place, weld it up to the heads and smooth out the exhaust port?

2) does this forum's advice for standard mesh header gaskets hold for boats?

3) what is the proper way to port/gasket match a square flange to a round hole? I saw some discussion on this but didn't comprehend.


Thank you in advance.
Please feel free to be critical.
Please tell us you are not worried about the cost of gaskets. If the answer is yes, get out of the hobby now before you get in too deep.

Bob

Mom told me they really walk around on earth.
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Old 03-08-2011, 07:09 PM
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There are flange "adaptors" that use 'over/under' bolts instead of the OEM arrangement of bolts in a line across from one another- but the flange adaptor is still held to the head w/the original bolts- unless you're using aftermarket spread port heads like are also used on sprint cars, etc.


FLANGE ADAPTORS


SPREAD PORT HEAD

Welding the adaptors to the head isn't a viable option, IMO. There'd need to be a complete blueprint of the heads done after the welding, to restore the surfaces and even the valve seats/guides could be affected by the heat. Just not a good plan, generally speaking.

Your best bet is to simply use gaskets and good hardware. Copper could be used between the adaptor and head, w/a composite gasket between the adaptor and header flange. This would allow for some 'squirm' w/o causing a seal failure. Plan on going back and retightening as they take a set from heat cycling and use.
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Old 03-08-2011, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d1mbu1b
what is the proper way to port/gasket match a square flange to a round hole?
I reread your first post, disregard the repetitive info on flanges.

Using all the available length between the two shapes, just go from one shape to the other. Stay smooth and use as gradual of angles and curves as that length will allow.
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
Welding the adaptors to the head isn't a viable option, IMO. There'd need to be a complete blueprint of the heads done after the welding, to restore the surfaces and even the valve seats/guides could be affected by the heat. Just not a good plan, generally speaking.

Your best bet is to simply use gaskets and good hardware. Copper could be used between the adaptor and head, w/a composite gasket between the adaptor and header flange. This would allow for some 'squirm' w/o causing a seal failure. Plan on going back and retightening as they take a set from heat cycling and use.
Thank you, for the explanation. I asked the question because: I don't know. From a beginners perspective, it seemed that having two points of failure is not as good as one. Now I know why. So, thank you.

Thanks again and another round of questions:
How tight do you torque the inner adapter bolts to the head?
How do you go back and re-tighten the inner bolts?
Should I get the adapter resurfaced before using the copper gasket?
How thick is the copper gasket?
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Old 03-09-2011, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
I reread your first post, disregard the repetitive info on flanges.
No worries. I appreciate the information[/quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
Using all the available length between the two shapes, just go from one shape to the other. Stay smooth and use as gradual of angles and curves as that length will allow.
Since the rectangular ports on the head are slightly smaller than the adapter (about 1/16" all around) should I worry about removing any head material or just leave the step alone?
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Old 03-09-2011, 06:04 AM
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Most of the guys I know of using the adapters on Sprint cars put the adapter right against the head, with just a thin coat of Red high temp RTV. When done this way the adapter can be torqued quite tight to the head and basically become an extension of the head. A gasket is only used between the header and the adapter, because of the thinner flange on the header.
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