[RCastle]

A Belt is not a weapon.I can not figure how this is even being seen as a weapon.I have no idea how to say it except maybe yell it.I AM NOT CONDONING BEATING A CHILD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!But you can not let them walk on you.
I am curious though,just what is a good form of corrective action to everyone on this side of the debate?

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by poncho62

There are many things wrong with todays society..................Drugs, guns, bullying are just a few of them..............and they have been around for years.

Some would say that removing God from the schools was the down fall of society. Personally, I think it makes a good point.

Brian

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by RCastle

A Belt is not a weapon.I can not figure how this is even being seen as a weapon.I have no idea how to say it except maybe yell it.I AM NOT CONDONING BEATING A CHILD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!But you can not let them walk on you.
I am curious though,just what is a good form of corrective action to everyone on this side of the debate?

A spank on the butt with my hand, that is it, PERIOD. What else would you call something you are using to increase "damage" than a "weapon"? Really, what else do you call it? It is a "tool" used to inflict more damage than without, correct? I see no other name than a weapon. I guess you could say it is a "tool" that makes spanking more painful. Why isn't your hand good enough? If one is so weak, so fragile that a spank with ones hand isn't enough to disipline a four year old, I say one needs to go shopping for some manhood.

Honestly, pull the pants down and a quick stinging swat on the rear will do much more and not inflict the pain or injury that a weapon will.

Brian

[RCastle]

Dang,this got out of hand.I knew it would.
First,I do not use a belt on my kids,but I do bust their rear,and will continue to do so.Regardless of what anyone says or thinks.
Second,I have not failed as a parent by using corporal punishment,nor did my parents or my grandparents.
Next,I do not believe that 4 years old deserves a belt,but I am not the one dealing with that particular problem.
I NEVER said that the crimes related to the school violence was linked to not spanking your children.I was just stating that the problems really took the spot light with the "Hugs" movement.If I can be proved wrong,I will accept that,however I do not think that anyone will find the amount of problems on that scale from the era of being disciplined.
Drugs,economic backgrounds etc.etc. do play into young men and women getting into trouble,but that is a complete different subject.
I do agree with you on the subject of removing God from school.Maybe not making prayers mandatory in school,because then we will have to bend over to every religion,but the Ten Commandments are a good set of rules to live by regardless of your personal beliefs.


Now I am hungry and want some Ritz crackers and pasteurized cheese product

[MARTINSR]

Whoa there big fella, we are apparently on the same exact page here guy. You don't use a belt but you spank, I said that is what I do and I think should be done. I never said you or anyone else who spanks has failed as a parent. I said if one needs a weapon to discipline a four year old girl one needs to go shopping for some manhood. Because it really isn't that hard to be tougher than a four year old girl leaving ones weapons aside, is it? Where are we separated on this subject? Other than the semantics on what is a weapon (which that is just opinion and we both have one) we are on the same page.


The "Hugs" movement came along and so did some degradation of society, yeah there could be a connection. Not because of the "lack" of spanking but because the parent didn't have a good alternative. They simply didn't spank, in other words they didn't discipline at all or a lot less. That doesn't work either. Society said "Don't spank" so they didn't, the problem is, they didn't say what TO DO instead!

The violence in today's world is MUCH more complicated than simply the "hugs movement" or Starbucks .

Brian

[Classix_Lover]

I don't see what the big deal is. Pain is the ultimate way of teaching someone not to act out of line. I'd probably side with Mikey and get a wooden spoon since you don't have to swing hard, but still get a nice little welt from it. Oh damnnn I know that feeling all to well when I was a little troublemaker.

[powerrodsmike]

The bottom line is that you need to communicate to a child that when they are errant, consequences will happen.

The consequences need to make the kid realize that they do not want to make the same mistake again. Repeat offenses need a stronger reminder that the deviant behavior won't be tolerated.

If you can guide your kid back into the path of correctitude with words, well... you are lucky. You must have one smart kid to be able to understand the abstract notion that they will be rewarded later, for good behavior now. Mine all seemed to be in the instant gratification mode when they were little.

I know that I would try to be creative in discipline methods that I used. ( I know it's kind of late in this thread to try to dispell the notion that I would drag a big old leather cat-O-nine tails or 6' boat oar with nails to remove the first 7 layers of skin from my 3 month olds posterior who just spilled 2 drops of Kool-Aid on the lawn in our back yard.....
But I will try anyway.)

Story:

My son was in first grade when he really got out of hand with beating up on the littler kids. It had been a problem for a while, and over the course of several months we had spent hours with him talking, giving time outs, room restrictions, toy confiscations, edible and entertainment type rewards for good days, some over the knee spankings, one or 2 with the spoon, and it made no difference..The outbursts would cease for a day or 2, then resume.
It had gotten to the point where he was asked to stay home from his after school daycare, (which meant going to work with dad after school...he got real good at sanding overspray off of fiberglass molds)
His teachers called a parent-teacher-principal-counseler conference for a date about 2 weeks away, I was dreading going. (yes I went to many of those..I was fairly proactive)

One morning I had an idea...Little Mikes hands were always busy, they were also his outlet for communication in many ways. I felt that if he lost the use of them for a while he might get the message..

So I tied his hands together in front of him with a big wide ribbon and made him stand in the corner and repeat.."violence is not an acceptable means of communication", for 2 hours.
I sat with him for the whole time, making sure his hands stayed down in front of him, (I wouldn't even let him scratch..), and I also made sure he kept that chant going for the whole 2 hours.

When we got to the PT conference with all that group of teachers and administrators they told me his violent outbursts had stopped some 2 weeks before. They asked me what we had done to effect that change..

I made them promise to not rat me out to CPS. They assured me that whatever we had done must have had a positive effect, and would keep it to themselves..

When I told them the story, the only one who's jaw dropped was the counseler. My response to her was, "cops put handcuffs on adults, aren't children just like little adults? Tell me what you solution would have been, knowing now all that we tried? I didn't hurt him in any way, I only passively restrained him"

She had nothing to say.

Nothing else we tried worked, but that bit of oddball discipline did, and it didn't mess up his mind, that is evident to me because...



Our son never hit another kid from that day on. Not even his sisters.(No one except when he played football ) He wasn't perfect after that, but losing the use of his hands like that made an impression he'll never forget.

He went from 6th grade through high school graduation without one disciplinary visit to the office. He is enrolled in the local college with a 3.98 GPA, plays football on the college team and works at Costco.


It is all about what will get the message through.

If it takes an open hand spanking, or something with a little more sting, or something out of the ordinary, thats what you use.

Sometimes it does take a bit of thinking though. And I don't believe that it is all that easy to outthink a 4 or 5 year old. Their thoughts are random and mostly irrational.
If your kids are defiant enough to argue,(a sign of leadership potential if you ask me), then you can't argue with an irrational mind..

Later ,Mikey

[Kevin45]

Due to this thread going in a direction it hopefully wouldn't and also due to the fact that by todays standard any form of correction like a whipping is deemed abuse, I am going to lock this thread. And Bull....whatever you do. Make sure it's the RIGHT thing to do. Thread locked people...let's move on. Nothing to see here. Step back please.

Kevin

[malc]

Does´nt appear to be locked

[Henry Highrise]

Originally Posted by malc

Does´nt appear to be locked

Thats because Kevin unlocked it. Check it out in this thread....Child disipline

[BMM]

As a young one myself, with a brother who was out of control, and a sister with an attitude problem, heres my observations.

Children so young are very easily influenced. They react to environment, and haven't yet developed a sense of interpersonal relationships. She see's you asking her to go to bed, and she see's a television show. It's only natural which one she will choose.

This may sound incredibly niave, but I've witnessed it lots...Words last longer than physical actions initially. But, its like a teeter-totter (or whatever the hell those playground things are). The more often physical means are used, the less effective words become.

A spank after defiance is fine. But premeditated, over the leg, repeated belting sends a very clear message to such a young child. A message that actions speak louder than words.

Wait until she's 16, when actions are all she knows. She won't be effectivley communicative with you...she'll act out. Just like she's doing now. Except when she's so young, she doesn't understans the effects of her actions.

By showing her defiance will be met with force teachers her the only way to be defiant is with force.


My two sense. I've seen it with my brother, who fought my dad with a baseball bat. Ive also seen it go the other way, with my sister. She used to be uncontrollable. Than my parents started communicating with her, rather than spanking. Now, shes a typical teenage girl, but she can talk to my parents.


It will take awhile, and will be stressful. But at four years young, do you really want to start a relationship with your grandaughter in which she hates you and you hate her.

You never quite know who she'll grow up to be.

[bullheimer]

wow! this will have to take some thought. i have read every single reply people!!! BMM, i don't get much of your point there. i think you must have missed something, but i wasn't there to see it. but I CAN tell you where I see this 4 year old later tho: in JAIL! maybe she will be there for putting an axe in grampa's head, but take it from me, stripes are in her future!

yeah, you guys, as usual, pretty much good advice, i am all for the spanking routine, i truley feel that it's omission is A big cause of unruly kids. but still, i did ask WHEN i could bust out the belt. i feel 4 is still too young. you guys nailed it when you said MOM needs a kick in the butt. it's HER fault. this little girl is almost never here, thank God, but if she was i could pretend to raise her the bull way.

my wife, who is basically grand-dot's caretaker when she is here, never lets me spank her. by the time i want to get my licks in, i am quite fed up with her antics.

Brian, your argument that i should use my hand because it's not a weapon, doesn't make any sense to me because i have a black belt in Kenpo. but even if i wasn't, a hand can be closed or open, and nobody here will tell you that a FIST is NOT a weapon, but even so, i think you said open hand. if you want to call a belt a weapon, and also a stick, that is your prerogative. i asked you for your opinion, and you gave it and i thank you for it!

fwiw, i have also open hand slapped this kids mother! lol!!! about 4 years ago i called her a **** and she hit me in the back of the head - we were in a car, me in front. after she hit me i turned around and slapped her face and boy i never heard the end of how i 'PUNCHED HER'. chheezewhiz!

okay and on to the Nanny Show. yeah, that lady is amazing but i'm sure you will all agree she has the patience of a SAINT! and besides that, she's way smarter than me!

we've agreed on ONE THING! believe it or not, but i think every single post from both the "spanks" and the "no spanks" ALL AGREE THAT FOUR IS TOO YOUNG FOR THE BELT, SO OKAY, NO BELT!! (YET) still, after 3 pages and 2 on a continued post, i still don't have any difinitive answer from the "spanks" as to what age i can use anything other than my hand (except the paint stick, which i love )

God! I've had more replies and thought on this thread than how to build my frikkin pontiac engine!
You guys with problem kids have my most HEART FELT SYMPATHIES, AND I WANT YOU ALL TO KNOW YOU ARE DOING A BETTER JOB THAN I WOULD! and as a man who always wanted kids and never will i will say that in my opinion, that even having a kid that's a rat fink is better than havin no kids at all. usually...(again, this is a person who never had to RAISE one, saying this.)

ONE MORE THING okay two:
first NO ONE IS COMPLETELY WORTHLESS, THEY CAN ALWAYS SERVE AS A BAD EXAMPLE!
second: Kevin, thanks for opening this post again, i don't know why you did, quite frankly, i can't possibly read anymore pages. even tho i don't think you should have closed it and i personally would NOT want your job, let me say this about that:
crappy title? maybe.... crappy first post?maybe..... but after 3 pages of replies with NO NAME CALLING it doesn't seem like you read them all, i could be wrong. in any event, feel free to close it now, cause like you said when you closed it... i doubt we're gonna get much else outta this dead horse. and thanks in advance, from my step grand daughter, who asked today if she could stay over tonight ( i said NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! + told her Dad, NOT UNTIL SHE KNOWS WHAT BEDTIME IS ALL ABOUT, and away they went) and will NOT be getting another *** whippin from gramps again. well, not until she gets to spend the night again anyway! ooops! can i use that bat brain?

[malc]

After spanking, there is nothing left to worsen the next punishment.
As soon as you spank you´ve lost.
My wife has four brothers all were unruly tearaways, putting it mildly.
Harsh punishment never bought them into line, in fact it got worse, two have done time.
It got to the state that upon being caught out they´d say "Go on beat me, let´s get it over with and I can get on with my life".
Their father used an olive branch or rubber gas tubing to whip their legs.
Children can get used to the beatings, and you´ve got nowhere to go.

I think your best option is to deny her what she wants, like staying over.
Let it go for awhile and try again, let her stay over but emphasise she has to behave.
If the mother is bad you may be the child´s only hope.

[ChevyTruckGuy]

I've done it both way and its just the same. The hard part is keeping a set of rule the child has to follow. If you let them get away with stuff it will never end. I found time out to be a good tool and a quick swat if I had to get there attention let them know I ment what I said. But I hardly had to do that. After we had a heart to heart about the rule as to what would happen if they decide to not follow the rules. Once they know they fall in line.
The biggest think is the adult have to agree on the way to handle the child and everyone need to follow through and do the something.

For example They would not go to sleep fine I would make them stay in there room's but. Guess what where getting up at 5am to start there day. A couple of day of fight fire with fire and they pass out at bed time.

Its just like have employee except there smaller and you don't have to pay them .
Craig

[Mikes Rocket 88]

I am a relatively young father...28 with a 14 year old duahgter...11 year old son...10 year old daughter...and 4 year old son.....i have only ever lost my cool once and i have regreted it since that day, spanked my boy for cursing his mother at 8 yrs old...the only time i ever spanked my kid on the bottom....my dad used to lose it on my quite regular..i swore i never would...so for punishement i have found that taking the material things that they hold close to them...mp3..internet....speed cart...snow mobile...ect....and not giving them back till they make a full apology works realy good..i just grounded my 11 yr old son from the garage and working on the car with me for 2 weeks..its been a week and he sits at the door every day after work with dog eyes and says he's sorry...even cleaned the bathroom...but stick to your guns...you said 2 weeks that means 2 weeks...and i kid you not...they respond correctly, or they dont get there stuff back...itll make em think twice before doing it again and loosing there possessions and freedoms....and you wont have a guilty conscience after having to spank there butt's..you win