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  #76 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2013, 10:23 AM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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I have been avoiding the purpose of this thread because it brings back too many bad memories.

All have been covered.....leaving hardener out and having to wipe off the primer you applied...oh yeah.

How about recoat windows in the acrylic enamel days? Did a set of 40 Ford wheels and waited a bit too long before applying the last coat.....TOTAL AND COMPLETE CATASTROPHIC WRINKLING! They had to be re-sand blasted and started again.

Spraying lacquer with too cold shop and metal temp, oh yeah baby, a Mazda RX-7 it's about midnight and I MUST deliver the car the next day, TOTAL AND COMPLETE CATASTROPHIC BLUSHING & WRINKLING/SHRINKING

Spraying a car, completely unmasking it then pulling it outside to see that every single spot of primer is clearly visible.

Leaving the new guy to seam seal the seams on a 70ish Ford pickup bed (they are the entire length of the bed right above the wheel) that HAD to be painted that night.......coming back from lunch to find he smeared it all down the side out inches from the seam! It was hardened and had to be scraped off and sanded and re-primed.

How about doing a demo as a paint rep on a Maverick. A complete, orange metallic single stage. It looked good in the booth, got it out side and it was HIDEOUSLY tiger striped!

Knocking over a heat lamp and having it fall onto the car I was painting!

Having my shirt, coat, pants and about anything else I am wearing hitting the fresh paint as I reach for the center of the hood or roof.

Hitting the mirror as I am making a pass down the door and putting a MONSTER run right where the gun stopped.

Painting a 57 T Bird doing the jams first letting the overspray go out onto the adjacent panels. Sanding the whole thing then coming back and shooting it to have the edge of that overspray lift and wrinkle on every single spot!

Having the cup fall off the gun, come on we all have lived thru that one. How about removing the hose off the gun as we walk away and letting it go to hit the ground just perfect whipping into the side of the car!

How about the wetting the floor trick? Dropping a hose to have it splash the water on the wet paint!

Having a fender or door on a rack fall off to the floor during painting.

Oh yeah, all wonderful memories. Some were in the absolute worse time, I HAD to get the car done to pay the rent, oh yeah, wonderful times.

Brian

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Old 09-05-2013, 10:56 AM
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Brian...we've all done stuff like that...one you missed is after a car is painted and your so proud while cleaning your gun and you just can't resit the urge to go in the booth with the paint pot in your hand full of thinner. While you swishing the thinner around you don't notice that you've spilled thinner over the entire side of the car that you just admired.

Pulling tape off a bit to soon and the tape and the paper lands on your freshly painted panel.

You wouldn't get this one in California but, anyone up here I'm sure can relate...just finished painting a vehicle, it's -35 degrees outside and someone opens the overhead door while the exhaust fan is still running...instant cold and all the clear hurry's down the side of the vehicle and lands on the floor.

Again, finish painting a vehicle in Summer (at night so all lights are on)...somebody opens the overhead door, the man door to the booth is open and every insect from a 20 mile radius tries to do their best to land in the wet paint.

Nothing worse though, as you mentioned, being a Rep, doing a demo and it's the worst paint job you've ever done...very few do overs when your a Rep...your lucky if you get one and that's usually the one you screwed up.

Getting the new guy to drive a freshly painted vehicle out of the booth and he doesn't look where he's going and side swipes the entire passenger side of the car you just painted.

Replaced a bumper on a Mazda truck once...same kid went to move it forward, didn't know how to drive standard (didn't know how to drive period) and runs into the vehicle in front of the truck.

Or my favorite blunder of all time....During the famous Ford paint recall era...we had so many trucks in the shop...I had 2 booths, painted both trucks the color that the one in the other booth should be. If only I could have seen the interior, the truck with the green seats didn't look good in Red...and the other way around.

Yes Brian, the list can go on and on, but, we are still here...I can't speak for you but some how, I look back and laugh and still enjoy the trade...LOL

Ray
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Old 09-05-2013, 12:17 PM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
Brian...we've all done stuff like that...one you missed is after a car is painted and your so proud while cleaning your gun and you just can't resit the urge to go in the booth with the paint pot in your hand full of thinner. While you swishing the thinner around you don't notice that you've spilled thinner over the entire side of the car that you just admired.

Pulling tape off a bit to soon and the tape and the paper lands on your freshly painted panel.

You wouldn't get this one in California but, anyone up here I'm sure can relate...just finished painting a vehicle, it's -35 degrees outside and someone opens the overhead door while the exhaust fan is still running...instant cold and all the clear hurry's down the side of the vehicle and lands on the floor.

Again, finish painting a vehicle in Summer (at night so all lights are on)...somebody opens the overhead door, the man door to the booth is open and every insect from a 20 mile radius tries to do their best to land in the wet paint.

Nothing worse though, as you mentioned, being a Rep, doing a demo and it's the worst paint job you've ever done...very few do overs when your a Rep...your lucky if you get one and that's usually the one you screwed up.

Getting the new guy to drive a freshly painted vehicle out of the booth and he doesn't look where he's going and side swipes the entire passenger side of the car you just painted.

Replaced a bumper on a Mazda truck once...same kid went to move it forward, didn't know how to drive standard (didn't know how to drive period) and runs into the vehicle in front of the truck.

Or my favorite blunder of all time....During the famous Ford paint recall era...we had so many trucks in the shop...I had 2 booths, painted both trucks the color that the one in the other booth should be. If only I could have seen the interior, the truck with the green seats didn't look good in Red...and the other way around.

Yes Brian, the list can go on and on, but, we are still here...I can't speak for you but some how, I look back and laugh and still enjoy the trade...LOL

Ray
Oh HELL yes I can laugh and this industry has been very good to me! I am thrilled with my "calling". Which is exactly what it was, it was NOT a decision I made to spend my life doing this, or even starting to do it, it is what was was made to do.


Brian
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Old 09-05-2013, 11:05 PM
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Brian...we've all done stuff like that...one you missed is after a car is painted and your so proud while cleaning your gun and you just can't resit the urge to go in the booth with the paint pot in your hand full of thinner. While you swishing the thinner around you don't notice that you've spilled thinner over the entire side of the car that you just admired.

Pulling tape off a bit to soon and the tape and the paper lands on your freshly painted panel.

You wouldn't get this one in California but, anyone up here I'm sure can relate...just finished painting a vehicle, it's -35 degrees outside and someone opens the overhead door while the exhaust fan is still running...instant cold and all the clear hurry's down the side of the vehicle and lands on the floor.

Again, finish painting a vehicle in Summer (at night so all lights are on)...somebody opens the overhead door, the man door to the booth is open and every insect from a 20 mile radius tries to do their best to land in the wet paint.

Nothing worse though, as you mentioned, being a Rep, doing a demo and it's the worst paint job you've ever done...very few do overs when your a Rep...your lucky if you get one and that's usually the one you screwed up.

Getting the new guy to drive a freshly painted vehicle out of the booth and he doesn't look where he's going and side swipes the entire passenger side of the car you just painted.

Replaced a bumper on a Mazda truck once...same kid went to move it forward, didn't know how to drive standard (didn't know how to drive period) and runs into the vehicle in front of the truck.

Or my favorite blunder of all time....During the famous Ford paint recall era...we had so many trucks in the shop...I had 2 booths, painted both trucks the color that the one in the other booth should be. If only I could have seen the interior, the truck with the green seats didn't look good in Red...and the other way around.

Yes Brian, the list can go on and on, but, we are still here...I can't speak for you but some how, I look back and laugh and still enjoy the trade...LOL

Ray
I remember a sikkens paint rep came into the shop one day and laid a turd. When he was painting the shop class clown said, "damn that's good paint, even comes with free tiger stripes." The entire staff started cracking up and he heard us. I'll never forget how funny that was to hear.
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Old 09-06-2013, 05:03 AM
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I don't think that there is Rep out there that hasn't laid a turd. The most recent Rep "Turd" comment I heard was "this clear is so awesome, you can't make it run"...I asked him "how do you get it out of the can then". Some can even be called turd's and I know of at least one shop that feels I was exactly that, a turd.

Again, back in the days of the Ford paint recall program, I was a fairly new Rep, full of piss and vinegar, rather full of myself and all body shops where looking at anything that would speed up the production process in any way possible. I went into my spiel about how ICI was the fastest and I would show them exactly how fast it was in a demo if they only gave me an opportunity.

The day of my opportunity arrived and I went to work in the booth with every stop watch, wall clock and wrist watch with a second hand synchronized. To say I was nervous would have been an understatement. Not only was this a complete, it was a two tone...silver with a red insert. All the body work had been done and primed, the truck was masked and I went through the process of etch, 2 coats of sealer (I hated sealer, even back then), even though I was in a hurry I used the time between coats of sealer to explain how important flash times where....exactly what a Rep should do. I laid out the red, masked it off and shot my first coat of silver. After the first coat of silver I was reminded of how much time I had used in the booth...the pressure was on. I laid out my second coat of silver (here comes a big part of the problem) and did my usual spray the fender and hood, go back to the fender while it's still flashing and drop coat the fender, do the opposite fender and drop coat the hood, all the while explaining why I used this method and how it eliminated exactly what Henry was talking about...tiger strips.

The base was on, I unmasked the two tone area of the truck and it looked great. I shot the first coat of clear and....every top surface looked like I waited for a sand storm before I started clearing. It was covered in dirt. I was in such a hurry to impress I used fast reducer in my base for the red, which was fine, I used a medium reducer in my silver so I could control tiger stripping but, in my last coat of silver, I didn't slow the reducer down and the drop coat left over spray dust...did I tack between base and clear...totally forgot, in to much of a hurry to impress.

What to do, I wanted to get rid of the dirt so I pounded my second coat of clear especially of the top surfaces to cover the dust....and heavier on the sides as well so that everything would look even. I ran the driver's side door from the handle all the way to the headlight up front and the nice big drop that the mid 90's Ford 1/2 ton had on the front of the hood looked like Niagra Falls with runs...and to top it off...you could still see the dirt.

Was I embarrassed? Hell yeah, I apologized to no avail...I was allowed to prep the truck (for re-clearing) but the shop owner wouldn't let me re-clear the truck...Now, what I remember most was one of the staff saying "that paint sucks, look at how much dirt's in it"...My only response was, "the dirt is my fault, ICI quit putting dirt in there paint over 10 years ago"...at least I got a laugh out of the shop owner for that comment.

I did learn many valuable lesson from that trip down the "my paint is the best and the fastest" road...and they are.

1) Paint is paint, they all work when used right and you follow procedures properly.
2) Slow your reducer's down when doing drop coats on silvers.
3) Tack between coats, no matter how much of a hurry your in to impress.
4) Loose the arrogance, if your humble, when you screw up (and screw up you will) it's easier to walk away with dignity.
5) Under sell and over deliver.
6) Don't sell a product as much as a service, people seem to remember the guy, good or bad more than the product...I'm sure that this shop remembered "the guy"...LOL.

All in all, I think this turned out to be a valuable demo.

Ray
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 09-06-2013, 08:03 AM
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Talk about under the gun, talk about pressure, to anyone who thinks the rep job is a walk in the park, they are "just salesman" after all, not like they are "real" painters or bodymen. LOLOL

To anyone who hasn't been there, think about this, think about your first day at work. That first day you walk into a shop and are told to paint that car or hang a quarter or what ever you are doing, that day when you don't know where the sand paper is kept, where the hose fittings are, where the light switch is, where the rags are, where the tack cloths are. You know NOTHING about the shop, it's your first day on the job after all. And you have to perform, you know after you leave that first day the owner...and every guy in the shop is going to be examining your work.

Now picture doing that every single day! You go into a few new shops every week, in different towns. Nearly every day it's your first day! Holy crap that is pressure baby!

And I wouldn't change it for the world! It was great, what I got tired of was being away from my family. I stayed in a hotel 60 nights a year. But DAMN oh DAMN did I learn a hell of a lot more than working by myself or working in a shop with a few guys to learn from. My God what an education you get as a rep.

Brian
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Old 09-06-2013, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
I don't think that there is Rep out there that hasn't laid a turd. The most recent Rep "Turd" comment I heard was "this clear is so awesome, you can't make it run"...I asked him "how do you get it out of the can then". Some can even be called turd's and I know of at least one shop that feels I was exactly that, a turd.

Again, back in the days of the Ford paint recall program, I was a fairly new Rep, full of piss and vinegar, rather full of myself and all body shops where looking at anything that would speed up the production process in any way possible. I went into my spiel about how ICI was the fastest and I would show them exactly how fast it was in a demo if they only gave me an opportunity.

The day of my opportunity arrived and I went to work in the booth with every stop watch, wall clock and wrist watch with a second hand synchronized. To say I was nervous would have been an understatement. Not only was this a complete, it was a two tone...silver with a red insert. All the body work had been done and primed, the truck was masked and I went through the process of etch, 2 coats of sealer (I hated sealer, even back then), even though I was in a hurry I used the time between coats of sealer to explain how important flash times where....exactly what a Rep should do. I laid out the red, masked it off and shot my first coat of silver. After the first coat of silver I was reminded of how much time I had used in the booth...the pressure was on. I laid out my second coat of silver (here comes a big part of the problem) and did my usual spray the fender and hood, go back to the fender while it's still flashing and drop coat the fender, do the opposite fender and drop coat the hood, all the while explaining why I used this method and how it eliminated exactly what Henry was talking about...tiger strips.

The base was on, I unmasked the two tone area of the truck and it looked great. I shot the first coat of clear and....every top surface looked like I waited for a sand storm before I started clearing. It was covered in dirt. I was in such a hurry to impress I used fast reducer in my base for the red, which was fine, I used a medium reducer in my silver so I could control tiger stripping but, in my last coat of silver, I didn't slow the reducer down and the drop coat left over spray dust...did I tack between base and clear...totally forgot, in to much of a hurry to impress.

What to do, I wanted to get rid of the dirt so I pounded my second coat of clear especially of the top surfaces to cover the dust....and heavier on the sides as well so that everything would look even. I ran the driver's side door from the handle all the way to the headlight up front and the nice big drop that the mid 90's Ford 1/2 ton had on the front of the hood looked like Niagra Falls with runs...and to top it off...you could still see the dirt.

Was I embarrassed? Hell yeah, I apologized to no avail...I was allowed to prep the truck (for re-clearing) but the shop owner wouldn't let me re-clear the truck...Now, what I remember most was one of the staff saying "that paint sucks, look at how much dirt's in it"...My only response was, "the dirt is my fault, ICI quit putting dirt in there paint over 10 years ago"...at least I got a laugh out of the shop owner for that comment.

I did learn many valuable lesson from that trip down the "my paint is the best and the fastest" road...and they are.

1) Paint is paint, they all work when used right and you follow procedures properly.
2) Slow your reducer's down when doing drop coats on silvers.
3) Tack between coats, no matter how much of a hurry your in to impress.
4) Loose the arrogance, if your humble, when you screw up (and screw up you will) it's easier to walk away with dignity.
5) Under sell and over deliver.
6) Don't sell a product as much as a service, people seem to remember the guy, good or bad more than the product...I'm sure that this shop remembered "the guy"...LOL.

All in all, I think this turned out to be a valuable demo.

Ray
I love your list Ray, all of it, GOLD. Number 1 is so overlooked by the average painter it isn't funny. People are so name brand driven. "Oh that paint sucks" "I tried it once and the color matches were horrible" yet there are thousands of shops using it every day with great success! LOL

But yes #6 is without a doubt, with-out a doubt the most important. That is what sets the different products apart, who brings them to your door.

Brian
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Old 09-06-2013, 08:30 AM
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You nailed it Brian...and how many times did you get a phone call telling you that everything was going great? God wouldn't need to have given me any more fingers or toes to count those calls...in fact I probably wouldn't need toes for those. When the rang, it was always a problem or at the least, a question...add that to what Brian mentioned about everyday being your first day. You don't just have one boss to satisfy (although few of us only have one boss...LOL, especially if your married) but every shop you walk into, the owner and or manager often treat you like an employee of theirs, except with higher expectations, after all, you are the Rep, you should and need to know.

You also needed to be concerned about sales volume for the management for whom you worked, business management (I think that was introduced in the 90's if I'm right) and get all the ICAR business and related coarse's you could for the shops you dealt with.

Brian, I would have given one of a certain body part (the right one is my favorite and still need it) to be in a hotel room only 5 nights a month. My territory would consist of Northern Western Canada. I can remember being to far away from home on a Friday afternoon, it would have taken me the weekend to drive home.

It was hard, but, I look at all the different technicians and painters that I dealt with. I learned much more from them than any paint coarse set up by any company I worked for, those coarse's taught me the basics, these techs and painters I dealt with taught me real world, that a good painter fixes a problem in the booth, lessons and techniques that made me a better Rep. As Brian said, "God what an education you get as a Rep" and I credit all the people that took the time to teach me for any success I might of had.

Ray
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:19 AM
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I love your list Ray, all of it, GOLD. Number 1 is so overlooked by the average painter it isn't funny. People are so name brand driven. "Oh that paint sucks" "I tried it once and the color matches were horrible" yet there are thousands of shops using it every day with great success! LOL

But yes #6 is without a doubt, with-out a doubt the most important. That is what sets the different products apart, who brings them to your door.

Brian
LOL...What pisses me off about #1 is that the paint company's need to understand this more than anyone. If they stressed #6 the company that did the best job of hiring and training their Reps in that regard would be the most successful....Paint is paint when you compare top quality for top quality, when you get down to the economy brands...well they all perform equally poorly...LOL.

Color match...with call display on my cell phone, if I recognized the number, I knew what type of problem the phone call was about. I had one customer that consistently had color match issues...one time I recognized the number, answered the phone and without saying hello I just said "add .3 grams of Black", just to mess with him...the response was "I did and it still doesn't match"...Now, a Rep should know, as should a painter that there are 2 colors you rarely add when tinting, Black, because Black will "muddy" a color and White, it will "milk" it out.

Training how to tint is one of the toughest jobs a Rep has, some people just won't and don't get it. Send them to a tinting coarse, some applicators come back to their shop with information overload and go right back to their old bad habits...Painters go back to their shop with information, use it and become virtually maintenance free with respect to tinting. Another tough job is to teach them how to properly use a variant deck...I've heard paint applicators say "I always choose the most popular variant and I've never had a problem"...then see their work and not be able to understand how they can't see that they do have a problem.

I remember the painter I was telling you about earlier that was constantly having color match issues...and he insisted that the company switch paint lines...he came to the line I was representing. His employer called me to inform me that a color the painter had applied on the header panel of a vehicle was so far off it was ridiculous and that I needed to get over to the shop immediately and remedy the problem. I rushed over, looked at the color match from the hood to header and looked at the painter and asked "when you finished mixing the color and you stirred it up...did you check to see if it matched?" He was disgusted with the question and said "of coarse I did". So, I said "Okay, did it match?'' He said "no, it was way off". I said again, "Okay, so then you put the paint in your gun and based the header panel, did it match then?" Getting more disgusted he said "no, the match was horrid". Then I asked "when you cleared the header panel, was the match any better?" Now he is fuming, I mean he's mad...and said with a few choice words "look at the the header panel you F*%#IN* moron, does it look like it matches?" This is exactly where I wanted him...LOL...I looked at him and calmly said "the color didn't match when you mixed it, the color didn't match when you sprayed it, those mistakes I can forgive but, answer me this, who's the moron that threw clear on a panel when he knew it didn't match, now it has to set up, get re-prepped, painted and re-cleared?" A little investigation showed that the vehicle had been completely repainted at another shop...who knows what color they put on it...for all I know, the owner of the vehicle told them to lighten up the color. The owner called me aside and asked what to do...I told him he needed a painter. Surprisingly, the new painter didn't seem to have color match issues at all...how is that possible? The ex-painter was not fired, he was given an opportunity to be successful in the body work department (he lasted several months in that position, apparently all new replacement body panels where defective and didn't fit the car).

And in there lies the difference between an applicator and a painter, a painter solves problems before they become an issue, an applicator puts paint on cars.

Ray

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Old 09-06-2013, 10:11 AM
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My God is it clear you were a rep! LOL I use to love "this hardner-paint-reducer-clear is from a bad batch". LOL FESS UP and take some responsibility for God's sake! How the living hell can a guy live day to day not seeing his faults and improving them? Instead blame everyone else, they are all screwed up, blame the product, it's screwed up, never looking within.

I literally had a guy show me how the color didn't match the spray out card. HUH? He sprayed it out, it matched (he showed it to me, it did) and he was livid because when the paint was sprayed on the car it didn't match!

I asked him "So what does that tell you?" He said the paint sucks. I asked again, "when you painted that card, it matched, you sprayed the exact same paint on the car, didn't even remove it from your gun, what does that tell you?"

He just couldn't see that it was his spray technique that changed and not the paint, he just couldn't see that! He was hell bent on blaming the paint instead of learning something. I had been telling him for months how to spray from panel to panel to spray out card or to what ever, using the same technique so all the parts match. He just couldn't grasp it, he just couldn't.

Or the guy who ended up with yellow blend panels that now didn't match at the other end of the panel to the adjacent unpainted panel. I showed him with a mill gauge how the material was thicker at the edge near the unpainted panel than on the other side where the blend was made! "This shows that more clear was applied at the end of the panel thus making it yellow." He just COULDN'T accept this! There is was, finger prints, DNA evidence, right there! But he just didn't want to see it, why not? Why in the hell wouldn't he want to see a solution to his problem?

What I use to love was going into a booth and teaching some guy how to apply "our" products and he would produce a spectacular job! He could do the same thing with the other paint brand he was using if he applied it the same way! LOL I was simply teaching him how to apply PAINT and CLEAR correctly, he thought it was the product I was selling that was producing the great job when in reality it was HIM!

Brian
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Old 09-06-2013, 10:21 AM
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I have taken a painter aside that had color match issues and on a fender he had just sprayed...and as you said with the same paint in the same gun. I masked off a section on the fender, leaving me about a 1 foot area to apply base. With a few minor adjustments, air pressure and size of pattern mostly (to proper specs), have sprayed that one foot area, unmasked it and the color was completely different...and it matched the car...Basic painting 101, follow the directions...and trust me if you do, it will not be as difficult as setting up a wall unit from Ikea.

Ray
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Old 09-06-2013, 07:34 PM
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some people are very hard headed, but don't worry i know guy who told me grade 8 bolts where defective because my 3/4" impact shouldn't break a 5/8" bolt....
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Old 09-06-2013, 08:04 PM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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I will never forget an engineer who owned a Mazda pickup I worked on. He told me he wanted to be sure I used grade 8 bolts to hold on his brush guard on the bumper.

Forget the fact that the paper thing bumper was bolted to paper thin brackets with grade 3. LOL

Brian
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Old 09-12-2013, 07:31 PM
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Once I marked all the small areas that needed work with a sharpie only to have small x's reappear when I applied the base and no matter how many coats I applied they magically reappeared
! X marks the spot alright!
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Old 09-12-2013, 08:16 PM
Faith - Respect - Trust
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derkyb View Post
Once I marked all the small areas that needed work with a sharpie only to have small x's reappear when I applied the base and no matter how many coats I applied they magically reappeared
! X marks the spot alright!
LOL....God Lord, every time somebody posts it reminds me of a stupid thing I did once...usually only once...LOL.

I was doing a a car, it was straight and ready for paint. The color was champagne...same color almost as the masking the tape I used to show where the dirt nibs where after the first coat. I had just pulled another all nighter...marked every little nib with a tiny piece of masking tape...tired as all get out, took a little break and proceeded with my next coat of base. I swear the color of the tape was so close, I had the deck lid left to base (that's where somehow I had about six of the these little hunks of tape) when i realized I never denibbed the car...it took me over 2 hours to peel the tape of from underneath the fresh coat of base and most of the time, the tape took the nib off as well...trust me, that only happened once...not the all nighters...the not taking the tape of the dirt nib...LOL

Dumb tried, but still dumb.

Ray
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