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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2013, 07:57 PM
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Take it slow and be methodical (I already know you are...methodical I mean...LOL)
I literally LOLED a good one here!

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2013, 11:09 AM
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OK , I should use the epoxy if its sandable? It seems to sand nice.
I had some patch panels that were poorly installed. (lots of warpage) before the epovy went on I workrd on striating as best I could but the damage was done I had lows as deep as 1/4 in. I used evercoat kitty hair on all the welds and deep lows amd I bought evercoat extreme rage filler for my body work and evercoat metal glaze to cover anything I find after that. I have been using the fillers & when I cut through the epoxy to metal I stop sanding and spray more epoxy I have only been hitting it with 2 coats but I have gave the drivers side 2 coats 3 times am I doing this proper? or will the epoxy be to thick in spots? tec sheet says 2 coats on epoxy says 2 to 5 coats on the 2k please help very confused
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Old 11-02-2013, 11:39 AM
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Also was wondering about a paint gun I am using a habor fraight cheep-o for primer I am sure I want a better gun to spray the paint last time I did this about 10 years ago I bought one from the mac tool guy and I was not impressed the cheepo worked better. Whats a good gun for a beginner that will spray paint out nice without spending a grand I am not a pro painter but I have 3 sweet rides that need painted so I do want a good one.My paint guy says he will make me a deal on a ANEST IWATA 4815 W300-134GC! spraygun or #4817 kit
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2013, 01:16 PM
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OK , I should use the epoxy if its sandable? It seems to sand nice.
I had some patch panels that were poorly installed. (lots of warpage) before the epovy went on I workrd on striating as best I could but the damage was done I had lows as deep as 1/4 in. I used evercoat kitty hair on all the welds and deep lows amd I bought evercoat extreme rage filler for my body work and evercoat metal glaze to cover anything I find after that. I have been using the fillers & when I cut through the epoxy to metal I stop sanding and spray more epoxy I have only been hitting it with 2 coats but I have gave the drivers side 2 coats 3 times am I doing this proper? or will the epoxy be to thick in spots? tec sheet says 2 coats on epoxy says 2 to 5 coats on the 2k please help very confused
Sounds like you're making this too difficult. First do all your sanding. Once all your sanding is done, then spray your two coats of epoxy. There's no need to spray two coats when you hit metal only so you can sand it off again, you're just wasting product and you'll be at it all winter. After you've sprayed your two coats of epoxy, come in the next day and shoot 3 coats of 2k, let it flash per tech sheet. Spray your guide coat, then block it down. Some people block with 180, I block 2k with 220 because it still sands off nice (at least the SPI I use) and this way I don't knock too much off too fast. Sand until all your guide coat is gone, and if you still have some shallow, imperfect areas, spray another 2-3 coats and block again. The 2k is doing nothing for you other than filling in low spots and straightening the panel, so ideally you want the minimum build from the 2k, only enough to get you to where you're straight. Once it's straight, spray another 1-2 coats. These coats fill in the sand scratches from your last block. Now wet sand these last two coats with 400 (solid base) or 600 (metallic base) and you've got a slick surface ready for your basecoat and you won't have to worry about any rogue 180 or 220 scratches.

Your epoxy thickness you were asking about earlier will be fine.
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Old 11-02-2013, 02:18 PM
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the rig is huge its a 67 Suburban. and has dings and dents everywhere had very little rust. I thought it was a creeme puff, but after striping it for some new paint we found lots of bondo.and poor work.I am repairing one panel at a time I am not willing to pay 20 k for a paint job so I am learning how to do it myself. I have done it before with very good results but that was 10 years ago and everythings changed, and I want to do the best Job I can do. I am trying to keep a coat of epoxy on the bare steel. problim is I am not real good at spreding and shaping the mud and it takes me a few trys to get it. I can tell when its right, but I cant get on one spred. I spred the mud sand it I find more low spots, and I have a ring of bare steel around the mud. before I spred more I cover the bare steel again with epoxy ,let it dry scuff it and spred again, some panels have taken 3 or 4 time3 of this before I feel its right or close enough for primer. if I can lay more on with out covering metal (It didnt cut through the epoxy or on bare steel) then I skip the epoxy. I may be being over causious but as ststed before I want it to last forever I use this as my tow rig to haul race cars and show cars so she needs to look good for a long wile I dont want any stupid mistakes to mess it up down the road in a few years. I also wouldnt mind painting a couple more of my cars. so buying some stuff to make the job easyer is a no brainer thanks again for all the advise I realy read and use it (should I start a new thred now that my questions are body work as well as paint?)
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Old 11-02-2013, 05:59 PM
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I don't think starting a new thread is necessary, they are both so closely related...you can't have one without the other.

As far as spreading filler 3 or 4 times is common and that number will decrease with experience. The main trick is to use any pressure on the block your using, let the paper do the work. Lizer is correct, get your body work straight, then apply the primer...if you want to use 3 coats of Epoxy that's fine, the Tech sheets will say 2 coats because Epoxy is generally used as primer between metal and either 2K primer or a top coat and doesn't have the build that a 2K primer does. I use only Epoxy now, but, I do spend more time on getting the body work straight.

Ray
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Old 11-02-2013, 07:04 PM
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So what you're doing is applying epoxy over bare sand thru spots in between every coat of filler. While that's a very anal way to do it and probably the best, it's not absolutely necessary. The filler can go on bare metal too, and in fact filler was originally ONLY indicated to go on bare metal, and the notion of putting filler over epoxy is probably something that's only been catching in in recent history. There's still a lot of old school guys out there that don't put filler over epoxy because it just doesn't feel right. And maybe you already knew all this. But for the small area of sand thru spots around your filler, I wouldn't feel bad putting more filler over that without epoxy, it' not a large area.

You probably aren't mixing up enough filler to apply either which is why you keep running out. Make up a lot more than you think you will need, and take a big glob of it and make a nice even swipe right across the area you want to repair. Spread the filler out a bit farther than the area you want to repair too, so you can feather it in. If you're just trying to fill the little spot and only that spot, you're going to be there all day trying to perfect it. Applying filler just right was a long and cumbersome process for me too, when I first started my car. Once I had made my way all around the car, I had it figured out really well and I could skim or swipe some large areas and had it where it needed to be with just two applications. Be sure to just dance the paper over the surface, like Ray said letting the paper do all the work. On that suburban with those wide open panels, if you're pushing on the block to sand, you might be flexing the panel in too.

I'll share one of the most helpful pieces of info I ever gathered here, and it saves so much time and makes your results so much better. Start cutting your filler before it hardens up completely. At the optimum time it will still feel slightly tacky to the touch but won't clog the paper when you sand it. If it clogs, give it a little more time. When it's just right, it will sand off in a thick snowy powder, rather than the fine dust it would sand off in later. First cut it with sharp, fresh 40 grit paper on a hard board, this knocks it down STRAIGHT and FAST. The 40 grit gets out the ridges and really high spots. Then take fresh sharp 80 grit on a hard board and knock it down. This too will get it real straight real fast, and almost perfect. Let it finish setting up, spray some guide coat on the area, block the guide coat, and see if you have low spots. If you do, swipe another skim coat and cut it down fast like you did the first time. This all results in less mess, straighter and faster sanding, and you aren't sanding into the surrounding areas as much making bare metal because you are sanding less. But the key here is SHARP, FRESH paper.

Last edited by Lizer; 11-02-2013 at 07:14 PM.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 11-03-2013, 06:40 AM
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Sounds like you're making this too difficult. First do all your sanding. Once all your sanding is done, then spray your two coats of epoxy. There's no need to spray two coats when you hit metal only so you can sand it off again, you're just wasting product and you'll be at it all winter. After you've sprayed your two coats of epoxy, come in the next day and shoot 3 coats of 2k, let it flash per tech sheet. Spray your guide coat, then block it down. Some people block with 180, I block 2k with 220 because it still sands off nice (at least the SPI I use) and this way I don't knock too much off too fast. Sand until all your guide coat is gone, and if you still have some shallow, imperfect areas, spray another 2-3 coats and block again. The 2k is doing nothing for you other than filling in low spots and straightening the panel, so ideally you want the minimum build from the 2k, only enough to get you to where you're straight. Once it's straight, spray another 1-2 coats. These coats fill in the sand scratches from your last block. Now wet sand these last two coats with 400 (solid base) or 600 (metallic base) and you've got a slick surface ready for your basecoat and you won't have to worry about any rogue 180 or 220 scratches.

Your epoxy thickness you were asking about earlier will be fine.
just to be clear, spray 2coats of EPOXY over the 2k for the quality and longevity...BUT....
Before you get too far ahead lets fall back a second when you welded the panels on did you weld them with completely front to back or spot every few inches??? it matters a lot
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Old 11-03-2013, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by TonkaYJ View Post
the rig is huge its a 67 Suburban. and has dings and dents everywhere had very little rust. I thought it was a creeme puff, but after striping it for some new paint we found lots of bondo.and poor work.I am repairing one panel at a time I am not willing to pay 20 k for a paint job so I am learning how to do it myself. I have done it before with very good results but that was 10 years ago and everythings changed, and I want to do the best Job I can do. I am trying to keep a coat of epoxy on the bare steel. problim is I am not real good at spreding and shaping the mud and it takes me a few trys to get it. I can tell when its right, but I cant get on one spred. I spred the mud sand it I find more low spots, and I have a ring of bare steel around the mud. before I spred more I cover the bare steel again with epoxy ,let it dry scuff it and spred again, some panels have taken 3 or 4 time3 of this before I feel its right or close enough for primer. if I can lay more on with out covering metal (It didnt cut through the epoxy or on bare steel) then I skip the epoxy. I may be being over causious but as ststed before I want it to last forever I use this as my tow rig to haul race cars and show cars so she needs to look good for a long wile I dont want any stupid mistakes to mess it up down the road in a few years. I also wouldnt mind painting a couple more of my cars. so buying some stuff to make the job easyer is a no brainer thanks again for all the advise I realy read and use it (should I start a new thred now that my questions are body work as well as paint?)
Well your using good bondo but try using a spray bomb guide coat before you sand ,it'll cut your sanding time in half and you'll be using your eyes to sand insted of your hands which will only confuse you (is it high or low) and did I sand enough or too much...the guide coat over the bondo is a giant help...Now ,I use the Z grip by evercoat and I dont know how this trick works with the Rage but with the zgrip you dont wait for the mud to get hard you start sanding as soon as it sets up hard enough so it dont smear when you rub your finger over it ,This will also speed things up and make the sanding much easier...sanding the bondo this way will clog the paper pretty fast so use your air blower to clean it quick when you cant blow it out any longer change the paper ...You'll go through a little more paper this way but the speed you gain will amaze you....something for you to try anyways..

Last edited by deadbodyman; 11-03-2013 at 06:58 AM.
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Old 11-03-2013, 08:59 AM
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just to be clear, spray 2coats of EPOXY over the 2k for the quality and longevity...BUT....
Before you get too far ahead lets fall back a second when you welded the panels on did you weld them with completely front to back or spot every few inches??? it matters a lot
I didnt install the patch panels they were on it all ready. I did have 3 small rust spots 2 on doors and one in a rocker. I cut the rust out and welded a 2"X4" chunk of tin I spot welded it all around till it was all welded. the paneles that were on already are all welded as well but looks like they just welded them in (lots of warpage). I hammer and dollyed it as best I could did some shrinking and more hammer and dolly Then I spred evercoat Kitty Hair over all the welds and where ever I thought the bondo would be thick.smoothed out the kitty hair sprayed 2 coats of epoxy over due to sand through and now I am slinging mud on. I was trying to fix like 6spots on one door and I kept fighting it last night I skimmed the whole door skin and blocked it out it came out very very nice this way should I be doing this on all panels?
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Old 11-03-2013, 09:04 AM
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You haven't clarified, are you using guide coat when you are blocking. I have a real hard time skimming entire panels. Tried to skim my hood and turned in to an on going nightmare that I eventually got figured out, but only after hours. If I have to skim an entire panel now I resort to Slick Sand, which is a polyester primer, extremely high building, basically sprayable poly filler but requires at least a 2mm tip, I sprayed mine with a 2.5. It was a crutch. It has its place for certain things, but it can be a pain in the *** as well. Needless to say it did help me get my car incredibly straight.
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Old 11-03-2013, 09:34 AM
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no I have not been using a guide coat well, I have not been spraying it on I have been looking at the mud to see where I have sanded and where the lows are if I find a high spot I grind off the mud beat it down and re mud it? I am sure there is probly an easyer way but this is how it has worked for me last time. Can I use any spray paint to guide coat it? it take me 2 days to get paint supplies unless I can buy it at Lowes or home depot.
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Old 11-03-2013, 01:58 PM
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You should definitely be using a guide coat, though I do know how the filler can kind of act like its own guide coat. yes, you can use any spray paint as a guide coat, I like to use the cheapest flat black paint, like the $.97 cans at Walmart. Lowes has some too but it didn't sand well, loaded up the paper. Just mist the guide coat on, hold the can back about 8 inches and go over the panel real fast to just get a fine black mist. Once it dries (I only give it about 10 min or so to dry) I wipe the panel down with a paper towel and this wipes up the spray dust on the panel so it doesn't contribute to loading up your paper. There are more expensive actual guide coat products you can buy, but the cheap spray paint in a can has always worked just fine for me.

For high spots you can tap down the high spot with the pick end of body hammer...support the back of the panel with a dolly, holding it just off to the side of the area you're hammering, and gently tap the spot starting on the outside moving in a circular spiral fashion to the center of the high spot. It doesn't always take a lot to tap the metal down. For real troublesome high spots I've also used a shrinking disk to bring it down. My favorite tool for moving high spots is a slapper, after I bought mine I hardly used my hammers anymore.
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Old 11-06-2013, 07:56 AM
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sand sand sand

Ok I am pluging away I am finding I have way better results if I spred the whole panel with mud. I am using a gyde coat, a 3' strait edge and feel to check it. it seems that whoever worked on it last time realy messed it up I am using a shrinking disk. a shrinking hammer and heat to fix the strehed out steel wow yhis is alot of worl I am still on the first side of the rig ayleast I started with the worst side

So now I am spreding kitty hair where the welds are and any lows that are greater than 1/8" then I spred bondo on the remaining low spots long board them down, then I skim coat the whole panel and block it out This is giving me good results but I am wasting lots of mud is there am easyer way for a beginner like me to get it ultra strait I am hoping to paint this bondo bucket black. Any tricks ir tips on getting it perfect the first try rather than 3 to 10 times
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Old 11-06-2013, 09:18 AM
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A trick for getting it 'perfect' the first try--for a beginner--would be what I said earlier...spray Slick Sand on it. You're putting a uniform coat over the entire panel and then you can block it and block it and block it. I block it until it's almost all gone (or until I start to see primer from below starting to poke through. I want the least amount of slick sand on there...just enough to fill the waves.
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