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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 06-23-2010, 08:15 AM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK
My favorite subject!

No simple answer but it starts with bare metal, not a sanded substrate.
Proper treatment of the metal I would say is the number one way to cut the chip potential.
Next is proper coats of epoxy with extreme flash times.

2K primer, if you want to use a talc filed primer because its cheap, skip the first suggestion and don't worry about chips.

Use a good primer and here again, you are not going to do this like a shop that does insurance work all day long, you are going to do extreme flash times.

Sealer, if chips are a real concern the only sealer you will use will be an epoxy, 2K urethane sealers are for production work.

Clear, hard for people to understand but three coats of an acrylic urethane, you are starting to go back-wards as far as depth and stone chip resistance.
Production clears are not the most durable clears.
The harder the clear the worse the chips will be, take a history lesson with the old 7600, then hc7600 and now, may be discontinued altogether, not sure but that is what I was told.

EVERY paint company has their one polyurethane allover clear, usually the most expensive, for custom work and durability.
Two examples, PPG 2002 best clear they have and a great clear.
Dupont use to have their 7800 glamor clear, that was a great clear but been changed twice now and don't know todays number.

Here again extreme flash times are the key words and car should not be waxed.

If you think you can skimp out on the prep and use a great clear, you will gain a little, but best to just hold your breath.

EDIT:
Forgot one of the most important things.
Use a good base and most important ACTIVATE it.
This is really the only post that needs to be answering in this thread, PERIOD.

And if I can be so bold, Barry can't say it, but he IS refering to his urethane surfacer primer as well. He may want to say it is better than others, but in all honesty, he is STILL saying use epoxy and NOT the urethane (2K he refers to) be damned whose urethane it is, the quality epoxy is best for rock chip resistance.

Brian

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 06-23-2010, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK
Back in the early 70's, Dupont had a state of the art primer, called Kolar or colar, touted as non shrinking and just state of art at that time, but you just could not sand it, that was before nano's came into play and the primer was a bust as just too far ahead for its time. Today you could make that same primer sand like butter and not compromise any of its non-shrinking properties.
OH MY GOD, every once in a while Kolar comes up. Man do I remember it well, my fingers still lack finger prints. I shot a Ford van that had been stripped to bare metal with it. It had no surfacing, so just prime it and sand it and shoot it with Imron was the plan. Well, the shop was busy and it took me a few days before I started sanding it, wet sanding it with 400. By the time I had gotten to the end of that job I felt like I was sanding a friggin four lane hiway flat! HOLY CRAP that stuff was tough.

Brian
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Old 06-23-2010, 09:04 AM
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but yet when i say i use epoxy only i'm doing it wrong.
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Old 06-23-2010, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
This is really the only post that needs to be answering in this thread, PERIOD.

And if I can be so bold, Barry can't say it, but he IS refering to his urethane surfacer primer as well. He may want to say it is better than others, but in all honesty, he is STILL saying use epoxy and NOT the urethane (2K he refers to) be damned whose urethane it is, the quality epoxy is best for rock chip resistance.

Brian

Ok so pretty much what your saying is on forward panels and anywhere thay can possibly see stone chips, don't use any 2k surfacer no matter the quality? Then what would be the point of using it at all?
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Old 06-23-2010, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shine
but yet when i say i use epoxy only i'm doing it wrong.
I have never said you are doing it "wrong"! I have pointed out the fact that in my experiances working with urethane primer is easier for surfacing.

And again, MOST of my advice is for people who are reading these posts learning. And just like I will suggest lap weld instead of the better butt weld, bond with adhesives instead of the better welding, use filler instead of the better metal finishing, etc. I say it because by the odds, they will be better off with the "bestest" methods instead of the "best" methods.

I don't give a rat's *** about the slight loss in chip resistance on the side of a car. Along the leading edge of the hood and fenders, damn tootin I am thinking about how much material goes on there. But the rest of the car, it just isn't going to make a big difference.

If you are going to put the work in to go the extra mile, it's all good.

Brian
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 06-23-2010, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panelwagon62
Ok so pretty much what your saying is on forward panels and anywhere thay can possibly see stone chips, don't use any 2k surfacer no matter the quality? Then what would be the point of using it at all?
Because blocking out the quarter panel on a 59 Cad is a hell of a lot easier with urethane primer than epoxy! Is that quarter panel going to get rock chips?

But unless you are living on a gravel road, what is the big worry anyway?

I don't know, cars I did years ago with lacquer didn't get many rock chips, I guess it's where you drive. I don't see that big of a deal. Take some common sense and mix it with what Barry said as the best, shake it all up and you end up with a durable paint job.

1. Take a car that has three cheap enamel jobs on it and sand it, put five coats of cheap urethane primer to block it out flat then cheap base and cheap clear.

2. Apply a couple of coats of epoxy over bare metal, sand that, then two coats of catalysed base and two coats of polyester clear and you have the best.

Go as far as you can towards #2 and the better off you will be. But it isn't realistic on every car. I am sorry, my Buick Gran Sport had a VERY rough hood and fenders, there was no way I was going to spend the time to make them perfect for epoxy over bare metal. Could I have done all the filler work and then epoxied it instead of urethane, yeah, I guess so. But the fact that I didn't doesn't make "that" big of a difference. I felt more comfortable using the urethane primer to surface it.

It is just a choice, what is "best" what is "bestest" is open to opinion. It really isn't THAT big of a difference.

Brian
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Old 06-23-2010, 10:21 AM
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Well I do live in wyoming county in northeast PA and if anyone is familur with this area will know we do not have the greatest roads what so ever. Just about everyday I see cars come into our shop loaded with stone chips and its all factory untouched paint. So when it comes to my own vehicles yes I want to know the best procedures to reduce stone chip so I greatly appologize if I ask a stupid question or one that is simple to answer to you pro's that have been doing this longer that I have been alive. Now my latest project is a 62 dodge panel wagon, I have been media blasting all panels two nice wet coats of epoxy. Now I am not the greatest with working with metal so yes I do use filler. Epoxy, filler, epoxy, more filler if needed then two or more coats of surfacer, blocked then two more coats. Is this a good foundation for a durable highly chip resistant paint job?
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Old 06-23-2010, 01:54 PM
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Brian,
Just so were clear or I;m clear to me--I'm confused.

The people that use epoxy up instead of 2K or polyester primer are shops charging best I know $50,000 and up paint jobs and these are on the old vettes.
No doubt this is the best way but a ton of work and many times on the phone I will try and talk an inexperienced painter out of doing that as the blocking skills would wipe out any benefit.

I was not saying don't use a 2K primer at all, my point was there are good 2K primers and 2K primers that are not much better then a good lacquer primer.

A good 2K primer will be less likely to shrink and soak over time and have much better stone chip resistance.

TOO many people think because you don't see the 2K primer they are all the same and that is far from the truth.
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Old 06-24-2010, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK
Brian,
Just so were clear or I;m clear to me--I'm confused.

The people that use epoxy up instead of 2K or polyester primer are shops charging best I know $50,000 and up paint jobs and these are on the old vettes.
No doubt this is the best way but a ton of work and many times on the phone I will try and talk an inexperienced painter out of doing that as the blocking skills would wipe out any benefit.

I was not saying don't use a 2K primer at all, my point was there are good 2K primers and 2K primers that are not much better then a good lacquer primer.

A good 2K primer will be less likely to shrink and soak over time and have much better stone chip resistance.

TOO many people think because you don't see the 2K primer they are all the same and that is far from the truth.
You make perfect sense to me.

Brian
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Old 06-24-2010, 06:01 AM
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" all epoxies were not created equal " spi epoxy sands just fine and builds good. unless you are doing collision work 2k primer is a waste. and this is a hotrod site not maco 101 . most every urethane primer out there will shrink and chip if you go more than a couple of coats. i just epoxy and block until i am satisfied . i see no point in sandwiching another product in between.
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Old 06-24-2010, 07:48 AM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shine
" all epoxies were not created equal " spi epoxy sands just fine and builds good. unless you are doing collision work 2k primer is a waste. and this is a hotrod site not maco 101 . most every urethane primer out there will shrink and chip if you go more than a couple of coats. i just epoxy and block until i am satisfied . i see no point in sandwiching another product in between.
Shine, do you use filler? Or do you metal finish the entire car? There are some who would call you a hack if you use filler.

As I said before, there are PLENTY of super nice cars out there, top show winners, top money at auctions we see on tv and the like that were primed in urethane and blocked. There is NOTHING "collision shop" about them.

Doing the whole thing in epoxy is great, do it, and recommend it. But you can't tell everyone using urethane primer that their car and their work is sub standard.

Brian
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Old 06-24-2010, 08:36 AM
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do i quote you and tell you that you are wrong? no . i don't . you need to delete your quote button or use the ignore function. state your opinion and be done with it. i give my opinion on doing restoration or custom work. since this is all i do i get plenty of laps in the booth to figure things out plus i talk with other professionals i know that also do restoration and custom work. there is a reason epoxy got popular. there is a reason some of us use it to surface with. just like there is a reason professionals don't use cheap products. and by using the epoxy only method i save a bunch of money on having to buy different products. there are only 3 on my cars. no solvents , no acids just 3 products all compatible . very little chance of a problem like the ones we see here every week.

and yes i use filler where needed . pretty hard to metal smith a corvette.
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Old 06-24-2010, 09:04 AM
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Shine, since you use your epoxy for surfacing you must be using a larger tip......1.8 maybe?????? How many coats will you do at one time before you block??

Also I use filler, does that make me a hack?
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 06-24-2010, 09:13 AM
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i use a 2.3 . i also only do one coat at a time. that is why i use the 2.3 . this car had 6 heavy coats of epoxy , each blocked.
this will give you an idea of how wet i shoot. first coat of epoxy is like the last coat of clear. one piss poor coat in the middle of a job will come back to haunt you later.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 06-24-2010, 09:21 AM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shine
do i quote you and tell you that you are wrong? no . i don't . you need to delete your quote button or use the ignore function. state your opinion and be done with it.
You have a problem with people quoting you? This is pretty much the norm on forums, if you feel it is not proper or something, I'm sorry. When there are a number of posts it is common to quote the one you are refering too.

Brian
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