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Wheel clunking and brake squeal

9K views 29 replies 6 participants last post by  poncho62 
#1 ·
For about the last month my Chevelle is making a bad brake squealing most of the time when I come to a stop. Another noise started about the same time, which is a clunking coming from the front driver's side wheel when I hit bumps in the road. The reason I mentioned the clunking is because I think the brake squeal is related to it. I say this because the pads and rotors are only about a year old. I took the pads off and inspected them, and looked at the rotor to see if maybe a rock might have been stuck between the rotor and pad. Didn't notice anything like that and there is still quite a bit of pad left.

What might be causing this? And does anyone think the two might be related? What should I check out as far as the clunking goes?
 
#2 ·
There are several things that can clung in the suspension.

1. Ball joints.

2. Shocks.

3. Control arm bushings.

The brake pads are probably "glazed" use some sandpaper on them to break the glaze.

Do they have the warning squeaker tab on them that tells you they are worn out.

Troy

__________________
If you don't make mistakes. your not doing anything.

69 SS/RS full custom Camaro 98 ISCA Grand Champion
69 SS/RS BB Camaro wifes driver
66 Elcamino 350/all dz parts,ac,windows,loaded,my driver
69 SS Chevelle BB conv.fresh frame off
26 T sedan street rod
 
#3 ·
The pads have plenty of material left on them. Someone also told me about the glazing so I took the pads off and scuffed them and the rotors up lightly with some very fine grit sandpaper. This did not help either.

Would a worn spindle cause this clunking? Also, if the spindle was worn enough could it also be casuing enough vibration to make the brakes squeal?
 
#4 ·
The only thing that will wear on the spindle, is the wheel bearings worn out and the race spin on the spindle. I would think that would be a continuous noise. Jack it up and spin the wheel, if there is a bad bearing you will hear it. You might try a new set of pads for the squeaking.

Troy

__________________
If you don't make mistakes. your not doing anything.

69 SS/RS full custom Camaro 98 ISCA Grand Champion
69 SS/RS BB Camaro wifes driver
66 Elcamino 350/all dz parts,ac,windows,loaded,my driver
69 SS Chevelle BB conv.fresh frame off
26 T sedan street rod
 
#5 ·
Also a loose pad can cause both a rattle and/or a squeal. The rattle would normallty disappear when brakes are applied if it is brake related.

If they are GM calipers, the outer pad should be cinced to the caliper by its ears, and should not move. The inner pad clips to the piston to hold it. Some type of anti-squeal (shim and/or lubricant or adhesive) can be used on pad backings where they contact the caliper/piston to absorb some high pitch noises as well.

Some pads just like to squeal, and are just inferior. The clunk is what you really need to find before driving again.
 
#6 ·
Put a jack under the lower a arm, as close as you can get to the wheel, raise it a few inches, take a long extension or some sort of lever, and put under the tire and lift to see if there is any slack in the ball joints.

Troy


__________________
If you don't make mistakes. your not doing anything.

69 SS/RS full custom Camaro 98 ISCA Grand Champion
69 SS/RS BB Camaro wifes driver
66 Elcamino 350/all dz parts,ac,windows,loaded,my driver
69 SS Chevelle BB conv.fresh frame off
26 T sedan street rod
 
#7 ·
yesgo said:
Also a loose pad can cause both a rattle and/or a squeal. The rattle would normallty disappear when brakes are applied if it is brake related.

If they are GM calipers, the outer pad should be cinced to the caliper by its ears, and should not move. The inner pad clips to the piston to hold it. Some type of anti-squeal (shim and/or lubricant or adhesive) can be used on pad backings where they contact the caliper/piston to absorb some high pitch noises as well.

Some pads just like to squeal, and are just inferior. The clunk is what you really need to find before driving again.
:thumbup:

This man has it. If the tabs have not been bent to hold them tight to the caliper housing, you will experience pad knock (GM disease) as the pad actually slides with the rotor on brake application until it hits and is stopped by the caliper housing.
 
#8 ·
Hummmmm, never heard of that. I've seen them come into the shop without any clips and not make any noise. If it wanted to slide or move with the caliper, the little clips would not stop it.

Just my thoughts.

Troy

__________________
If you don't make mistakes. your not doing anything.

69 SS/RS full custom Camaro 98 ISCA Grand Champion
69 SS/RS BB Camaro wifes driver
66 Elcamino 350/all dz parts,ac,windows,loaded,my driver
69 SS Chevelle BB conv.fresh frame off
26 T sedan street rod
 
#9 ·
It is in every shop manual i have ever read pertaining to brakes, and I have done it on thousands of vehicles. Many Dodge and Ford pads are like that too. Sure, they move with the caliper... they have to. They are not supposed to move independantly of the caliper, or caliper bracket, thus the need for the clips and/or ears, varying according to design. If they are not cinched down on a GM, it is not a guaranteed rattle/squeak, just a possible one. If you show me a type of disc brake system which has no provisions for keeping the pad from rattling, it will be a new one on me, after several thousand brake jobs on domestic and foreign vehicles.

I also may have misspoke a statement. If it is a rattle over bumps that is pad related, it should disappear when the brakes are applied... and there are always exceptions.
 
#10 ·
yesgo said:
Sure, they move with the caliper... they have to. They are not supposed to move independantly of the caliper, or caliper bracket, thus the need for the clips and/or ears, varying according to design. If they are not cinched down on a GM, it is not a guaranteed rattle/squeak, just a possible one. If you show me a type of disc brake system which has no provisions for keeping the pad from rattling, it will be a new one on me, after several thousand brake jobs on domestic and foreign vehicles.
I'm not understanding just what you are saying.

Your other post read like you were saying the pads moved with the rotor until they stopped and that would make a clunk.

The pads ride on the rotor, there are two long bolts that hold them in place. The only way they can move is to clamp the rotor between them. If they are loose, there is something else wrong.

I understand the clunking noise to be going down the road and hitting bumps. which my first guess would be a bad ball joint. A shock would thump and rattle, but would not be a clunking noise.

You can modify the pads if they are solid surfaced, by taking a hack saw or cut off and cutting a grove a third of the way from each end of the pad top to bottom, about 1/2 of the way through the pad. This was in a service bulletin from GM in the early 70s.
I have done it many times and it works.

Troy

__________________
If you don't make mistakes. your not doing anything.

69 SS/RS full custom Camaro 98 ISCA Grand Champion
69 SS/RS BB Camaro wifes driver
66 Elcamino 350/all dz parts,ac,windows,loaded,my driver
69 SS Chevelle BB conv.fresh frame off
26 T sedan street rod
 
#11 · (Edited)
*sigh*
I agree the front end needs to be checked.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Troy,
The pads do not actually ride against the rotor at all times... at least without any kind of force. That is definitely not how they work. If they are working correctly, there will be a minute space between the pad and rotor while driving. You may hear or feel a very slight drag on inspection. There is way more to it than I can easily explain...

On this type of GM front disc (most 69-87 RWD GM), the inner pad is secured to the piston by a clip. The piston retracts when the brake is released, bringing the inner pad with it, away from the rotor. The action of the 'square cut' seal retracts the piston. The caliper will move in the opposite direction, but not enough to cause an inner pad drag.

The outer pad is secured/cinched to the caliper. The holes around the guide pins may help, but are mostly an installation guide.

The caliper uses oring bushings to float on the guide pins and sleeves. When the piston moves outward, it pushes the inner pad to the rotor. As the inner pad pushes against the rotor, this resistance forces the rest of the caliper to slide inward, applying the outer pad, and giving the squeezing action. All of this happens in an instant.

When the brakes are released, and operating properly, everything returns to very near its previous position. This is accomplished with the 'square cut' seal against the piston, and the o-ring bushings on the guide pins returning to their original shape, as well as the rotor itself pushing the pads away as it spins and flexes on the bearings. It is not a perfect system, but there should be no real drag.

Pad rattle, squeal, or click, sometimes can occur on this type of brake if the inner clip is missing, or the outer pad is not cinched. You may get a single click when changing from reverse to drive, and applying brakes at both times, or the brake pads can actually rattle in place over bumps.... or they may just squeal... or you may notice nothing. I would not describe it as a clunk, but people describe things differently.

If there is excess runout in the rotor, it can affect this, without causing a shake. If there is anything holding pressure to the piston, that can also affect it. If the orings are worn or dry.... or the pins are bent, or, or, or.....

This is already too long, and has barely scratched the surface of a proper explanation. On the later 'low drag' calipers, there is, well, even less drag. This is accomplished with a different cut to the piston seal, and a different type of master to compensate for that.

If you wish to discuss this further, Troy, I would suggest a separate brake discussion post, although I usually dislike arguing (and typing, though you can't tell by this), or you can PM me. I may ask your advice on some body work i need to do, and you can ask me how to fix your brakes so they dont drag if you like. I'm sure I dont know everything about brakes, but I know quite a bit. I have my opinions, and I have facts with references. I merely mentioned the outer pad cinch because it is often overlooked, and sometimes can cause a problem such as described. If you have never heard of it, you have not seen or cured as many brake problems as I, as I am sure I have not done many of the things of which you are an expert. When it comes to brakes, I am an expert, certified and specialized. I often avoid these posts as I find it difficult to argue with bad advice, or to advise people with no brake knowledge or comprehension, as well as pre-conceived myths. Even on brakes, I am not always right, or entirely accurate, but I am seldom wrong if you take my words for what they are... of course, you will need excellent reading comprehension skills, as I am not the best at articulating my thoughts. They are too involved.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anything that I would personally describe as a clunk over bumps, I would also suspect to be front end parts. All of my brake inspections include suspension, steering, and bushing inspections.

I have heard clicks described as clunks, or far worse. Grinds are squeals, squeaks are horrible grinding, grinding is air escaping. The noise from the right front is descibed as the left rear, the horrible shaking described is barely noticeable, while the completely unnoticed shake puts my knee in my chest, and half twists my wrists off. Descriptions are just a loose guide, and it makes it even more difficult in type. I have even heard what I would call a very slight drag, as "considerable resistance". It is relative.
 
#12 ·
Our rattles and clunks do not have the same definition.
But thats kool.



There is no need to explain to me how brakes work. I have been a certified GM master technician since 1966. And still have an automotive repair shop with 5 techs. I have worked on one or two brake systems.

Troy

__________________
If you don't make mistakes. your not doing anything.

69 SS/RS full custom Camaro 98 ISCA Grand Champion
69 SS/RS BB Camaro wifes driver
66 Elcamino 350/all dz parts,ac,windows,loaded,my driver
69 SS Chevelle BB conv.fresh frame off
26 T sedan street rod
 
#13 ·
Thanks for the excellent ideas guys! I'm going to take my car into the suspension shop just as soon as I can get ahold of McGard locks. I seem to have bad luck every once in a while, and my key to get my wheel locks off is warped. This is because the last time I had my car in the shop the mechanic torqued all the lug nuts (including the locks!) to 100 ft/lbs! I guess this is alright for the lug nuts but definitely not the locks. Needless to say, when I went to take my wheels off here a while back I could not get the locks off and the key deformed in the process. So, now I must someone how figure out how to get a replacement key (I don't have the ID number anymore) from McGard.


Anyways, I'll let you guys know what I find out about the frontend. And as far as the brakes go I'm just going to try a different set of pads.


Before I go though, I just ran out to the garage while writing this and looked at something with my pads. I noticed the outter pad on the side that's squealing has quite a bit of play in it; I can move it up and down and left and right really easily with my hand. That's not normal is it?
 
#14 ·
No it's not. if they are that loose the wheel should spin easly.
And you would have a rattle.

BUT how did you do that with the wheel locked on?

Troy
__________________
If you don't make mistakes. your not doing anything.

69 SS/RS full custom Camaro 98 ISCA Grand Champion
69 SS/RS BB Camaro wifes driver
66 Elcamino 350/all dz parts,ac,windows,loaded,my driver
69 SS Chevelle BB conv.fresh frame off
26 T sedan street rod
 
#17 ·
Pad worn out, caliper frozen, the best thing to do is take the wheel of and look at it, there is not that much can go wrong in there.

Troy

__________________
If you don't make mistakes. your not doing anything.

69 SS/RS full custom Camaro 98 ISCA Grand Champion
69 SS/RS BB Camaro wifes driver
66 Elcamino 350/all dz parts,ac,windows,loaded,my driver
69 SS Chevelle BB conv.fresh frame off
26 T sedan street rod
 
#18 ·
The outer pad would only be loose if it is not cinched down to the caliper by its ears. It is part of standard installation procedures. If the caliper was seized, the brakes would drag. A loose pad could also cause a drag. A frozen caliper would be cold.

Here is a pic of a similar pad (dodge) showing the approximate points which must be squeezed together. On a GM, a large pair of channel locks should suffice.
http://www.moparaction.com/Tech/archive/disc/18.jpg

Now I give up.
 
#19 ·
A frozen caliper would cause the outer pad to wear, then it would be loose, But he said the pad was loose, and the wheel wouldn't hardly turn?

The pad rides lightly on the rotor, that is why they get hot going down the road.

As far as crimping the ears on the outer pads, that would warp the metal. I've never heard of any one doing that, or seen it in any manual. I just flipped through my GM manual, there is nothing in it about crimping the ears on disc brake pads. Nothing.

If I caught any of my employs bending anything in the brake system, they would get fired on the spot, as I am liable if any part of the brake system fails after I have worked on it.

Troy
 
#20 ·
...sigh...

I was trying to stay out of this one...

Certain stlyes of GM, FORD and MOPAR have two ears or tabs on the outer brake pad that are bent in once the pad is installed. This keeps the pad tight against the caliper housing. If it is not tightened or tightened properly, it will cause squeal, rattle and that dreaded GM disease, :evil: PAD KNOCK :evil:

Now, the man has explained it several times, myself twice. If you are a certified GM tech and have not come across this...Let's just say I am certainly amazed.

Let the flames begin... :rolleyes:
 
#21 · (Edited)
There is nothing in the GM manual, or in the Master Tech test that says any thing about it. I have been to a dozen GM schools on brakes, and there was never anything about bending the pad ears.

Show me in a manual where it says to bend them.

Troy

www.carcentral.net/content/ guides/HowToServiceDiscBrakes.php - 18k -

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How To Service Disc Brakes


By: Chris Stephens (07/15/03)
Tools and Supplies:
Basic Hand Tool Set, Jack & Jack Stands, Semi-Metallic Brake Pads, Cross-Drilled Rotors, Brake Fluid


Brake System Knowledge
This guide is intended to provide you with a basic understanding of how to replace disc brake pads on a common, modern vehicle; not to provide in-depth knowledge of brake systems. It will assume that you are familiar with the basic components of a disc brake system such as the brake pads, rotors, calipers, et cetera. It will be necessary to lift the front of the vehicle and remove the wheels in order to gain access to the disc brakes. Use extreme caution to ensure your car or truck is properly supported at all times. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.


Disc Brake Problems
Replacing worn brake disc brake pads is probably the most common service performed on a vehicle's brake system. Fortunately, replacing disc brake pads is very simple and not beyond the scope of the home do-it-yourselfer. In fact, removing and reinstalling the wheels is often the most labor intensive aspect of changing disc brake pads. Furthermore, disc brakes often give plenty of warning when they need to be replaced. Many cars have a device known as a squealer that will touch the surface of the rotor and create a high pitched squeal (hence the nickname) when the brake pads have worn down sufficiently. Other noises coming from the front of the vehicle while in motion may also indicate a problem with the brake pads. Brake noises often change or disappear when the brakes are applied. Regardless, it is important to have your brakes inspected regularly to maintain the safe operating condition of your vehicle.


Removing The Brake Calipers
Once you have determined that you need to replace the brake pads, you can start by removing the brake calipers. Each caliper is held onto the hub or spindle by two slider pins. These pins can be loosened from behind each caliper. The slider pins do not need to be completely removed in order for the caliper to be removed. Some slider pins will require the use of either a large torx or hex socket. Since you have not (and should not have) removed the front brake hoses, the caliper will have to remain tethered to the vehicle. Do not let the caliper hang from the brake hose as this can easily damage the hose or its fittings. Fabricate a simple hook from an old coat hanger and hang the caliper from the top of the strut. Be sure that nobody touches the brake pedal or brake fluid reservoir while the brake calipers are off or the piston may be forced too far out and may rupture a seal. Next, you need to press the piston back into the caliper to make room for the new (thicker) brake pads. With the old brake pads still in place, use a large c-clamp or channel lock pliers to carefully press the piston in. If the piston will not retract smoothly, it may need to be rotated in with a special tool. Now remove the brake pads from the caliper.


Choosing Brake Pads
Your local auto parts store is likely to offer a variety of choices of brake pads available for your vehicle. Normally, it is best to choose the same type of brake pads as were originally used on your vehicle. However, consider that premium semi-metallic brake pads may provide a shorter stopping distance and longer brake pad life than standard organic pads. They are however, harder on your disc brake rotors and they tend to be noisier. For those vehicles that originally came equipped with organic compound brake pads, I often suggest upgrading to premium where the disc brake rotors are fairly inexpensive.


Resurfacing vs. Replacing Rotors
Having worked in the service industry for years, I have often been asked whether resurfacing or replacing brake rotors is really necessary. My answer is always that your brake pads and the surface of your brake rotors are life-mates; change one and you need to change the other. Fortunately, having your brake rotors resurfaced can be done relatively cheap. Some retailers may offer a reduced price on resurfacing the brake rotors if you purchase the brake pads from them. If the rotors are too thin to be machined or if their price is comparable to the price of new ones (which does happen) they should be replaced. Removing the rotors should be easy (in most cases they will just slide right off). Otherwise, check to see if there are any push-nut retainers on the wheel studs holding them in place. If not, tap lightly with a hammer on the center hub of the rotor to free up any corrosion. Some newer vehicles (mainly imports) have two small metric threaded holes in the brake rotor in which the correct sized bolts can be threaded in and used to press the rotor off the hub. Other rotors may need a special tool known as a slide hammer. The last common design is used mainly on older ford vehicles in which the rotor houses the wheel bearings. These will need to be removed before the rotor can come free. Be sure to clean the bearings and repack them with fresh wheel bearing grease before reinstalling.


Installing New Brake Pads
Compare the new brake pads to the old ones. They should be similar in size, shape, and have the same style of shim (if so equipped) attached to the back. In some cases, shims may need to be purchased separately and clipped in place. Snap the brake pads into place in the brake calipers. They should fit nicely into the caliper and clip into place. Permatex Lubricants offers a product called "Disc Brake Quiet" which can be spread on the back of the brake pads before they are installed in the caliper. This product can help reduce any chatter from the brakes and should be available at all major auto parts retailers.


Reinstalling The Brake Calipers
Inspect the old brake pads again for uniform thickness and appearance. If they have worn unevenly there is a good chance that the slider pins are seizing up in the caliper and preventing it from sliding back and forth properly. If necessary, replace or clean and lubricate the slider pins with disc brake caliper lubricant. Although not always necessary it may help extend the life of your new brake pads and rotors. Reposition the the brake caliper on the hub and tighten the slider pins.


Bleeding Brakes
After changing the brake pads, be sure to test out the brake pedal before driving the vehicle. Pump the pedal a few times to force the brake pads to squeeze the brake rotors. If the pedal is soft or fades you should consider bleeding the brake system before using the vehicle. Please view our How To Bleed A Brake System guide for more information
 
#22 ·
I guess i dont give up quite yet.

posted by Troy
Snap the brake pads into place in the brake calipers. They should fit nicely into the caliper and clip into place.
OK, so if they dont automatically fit nicely and clip into place? You must bend the ears according to service procedures. Or I guess in your shop, you sell a new caliper and/or pads and pray they fit together perfectly. I suppose if you get loaded calipers, the bending has been done for you. Not all pads snap into all calipers without a little help.

On a GM RWD you can use channellocks while installed. On Ford and Chrysler, you must bend them first, and then snap in place. On some older GM FWD, there are 2 little ears which poke thru holes. Bend them after installation with pliers, or a hammer.

I dont have a GM manual here. I suppose Haynes and Chiltons are not reliable for you? How about NAPA? Myriads of DIY websites?

Chilton's /Firebird 67-81. pp292 with illustration... "Use pliers to fit the brake pad to the caliper housing."

Chilton's /Cutlass 70-87. pp247 same illustration "Cinching the outboard shoe"

Haynes /Plymouth vans 1971-1991. pp192-193 (Disc brake pad replacement, step 11 "If the outboard pad flanges do not fit snugly in the caliper, remove the pad and carefully bend the flanges to obtain a tight fit.
illustration pp193 "Bending the disc brake pad flange"

Here is a PDF file with a picture similar to a GM FWD caliper on early J-bodies, and some others, with bending instructions:
i.b5z.net/i/u/1080235/f/Mounting_Instructions_3.5K.pdf

Here is a NAPA website mentioning bending of the ears:
http://www.napaonlinecanada.com/uap/Client/en/Napa-Online/guideconseils/guideconseils.asp?id=128

Another auto parts supplier bending ears:
http://www.blountweb.com/drake/tips/disk_brakes.htm

Mopar online using a hammer:
http://www.moparaction.com/Tech/archive/disc-main.html

Another auto supplier mentioning channellocks to bend the outer pad:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/securebrake/discbrakepads.htm

These same instructions can be found in various places.

Here is one on a site for people with learning disabilities, also mentioning the procedure:
http://www.fanshawec.on.ca/disability/ld/apprentice/chapter46.htm

It's okay. The owner of my shop has had it since the 60's, and I had to prove it to him too. I have only been doing it for 15 years while ASE certified. It has solved many comebacks from people who did not do it. I suppose it makes more money for the shop to sell a caliper or another set of pads rather than bend the ears according to service procedures, so I can see how you would be mis-informed of this.
 
#23 ·
Pontiac TSB 86-C-16
http://www.michiganfieroclub.org/86-c-16.htm

"Cinch outboard shoe to caliper, per service manual"


This TSB appilies to a parking brake recall on rear disc brakes for certain 82-86 Firebirds and 84-86 Fiero. The Fiero pads dont actually need to be cinched because there is a clip and tabs which hold the outer pad tight to the caliper. The Firebird rear disc had classic GM style pads which need to be cinched.

All disc brakes should have some sort of clips, tabs, ears, etcetera which keep them from moving around. On the ones which install on a bracket, there are spring clips which hold the pad from moving. On vehicles on which the pad(s) secure to the caliper, they secure to the caliper. This is done by either bending (cinching/clenching) the ears/tabs, or by using the clip(s) provided on the pad or with caliper hardware.

If either pad is not secure, it may knock, rattle, squeak, or make similar noises. Specifically on rear mounted calipers (calipers mounted behind the wheel) the knocking can sometimes be quite pronounced, as the pad(s) ride up, and then come back down, making a series of clacks for each revolution.

Securing the outer pad properly is not guaranteed to cure all brake noise.
 
#24 ·
Was talking to one of my guys today, and mentioned this debate.
He chuckled, and said he had seen this done and if there was a rattling problem then he used that method to tighten things up.
So I guess it is a recommended procedure. I've never had any problems just installing them the OLD way or I would have discovered the bending process.

There is nothing like a good healthy debate to learn new things. However I don't appreciate being flamed.


Quote: Originally posted by Yesgo
_______________________________________________
It's okay. The owner of my shop has had it since the 60's, and I had to prove it to him too. I have only been doing it for 15 years while ASE certified. It has solved many comebacks from people who did not do it. I suppose it makes more money for the shop to sell a caliper or another set of pads rather than bend the ears according to service procedures, so I can see how you would be mis-informed of this.
________________________________________________

What did you mean by this childish remark.:spank:
It was totally uncalled for. I have never said anything about selling a new caliper or another set of pads to fix a problem.

Troy

__________________
If you don't make mistakes. your not doing anything.

69 SS/RS full custom Camaro 98 ISCA Grand Champion
69 SS/RS BB Camaro wifes driver
66 Elcamino 350/all dz parts,ac,windows,loaded,my driver
69 SS Chevelle BB conv.fresh frame off
26 T sedan street rod
 
#25 ·
I sincerely apologize Troy. I was becoming angry because some of your advice seemed to be coiciding with things i was taught by salesman-mechanics before I figured out the real deal. They had me believing in what I was selling, and it was just wrong.

I had to see alot of things that shouldn't have worked, work, and alot of things that should have, not work, plus a lot of reading, and watching older guys and especially backyard retired mechanics, before i figured some of it out.

I am sorry. I take it back. I do not believe you are out to rip people off. You would not be here if you were.
 
#26 ·
That's life.

Apology accepted.

Troy

__________________
If you don't make mistakes. your not doing anything.

69 SS/RS full custom Camaro 98 ISCA Grand Champion
69 SS/RS BB Camaro wifes driver
66 Elcamino 350/all dz parts,ac,windows,loaded,my driver
69 SS Chevelle BB conv.fresh frame off
26 T sedan street rod
 
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