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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 08:33 AM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latech
I say loop - de -loop. shirley temple is right.
I did not notice I have bourbon younger than this thread.LOL
LOLOLOL, we may not be learning anything about brake lines but damn there are some good jokes!

Brian

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 08:38 AM
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Ainīt just the brake lines that are "loopy".
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 08:41 AM
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does anybody here really think those lines can support a master cylinder ??? i can just see a frame moving down the line with the master cylinder hanging on the lines.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shine
does anybody here really think those lines can support a master cylinder ??? i can just see a frame moving down the line with the master cylinder hanging on the lines.
Yeah, and then the body is put on sliding it up to the master cyl? That makes no sense, I am trying to wrap my head around the idea and it just makes no sense.

One of the things I have done for years and years when working on cars everyday. When I struggle with something, I step back and look at it and ask myself "How would they install this at the factory, I know they didn't struggle like I am". That is my rule, I ask myself that and look at it differently and will find the answer most every time. When I don't of course I then go to the manual because damn it, there is no reason to struggle with something THEY DIDN'T ON THE ASSEMBLY LINE!

So putting that thought into play, how in the world could that master cyl be installed on the line where those coils would come into play to hold it in place? And another question, why the coils at all? The coils don't make it stronger! Coils aren't somehow going to support the master where a 90 degree bend wouldn't have.

Like I said, this is how I see it, if someone has other ideas if these guys who worked at Ford can explain it, please get the word because I don't get it.

Brian
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 09:34 AM
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On the subject of this thought that I use when struggling with something "How did they do it on the assembly line" to solve things, I have a guy at the shop who refuses to see this. I have worked with him for 10 years and I will see him day after day fighting window channel rubbers trying to stuff them down into the metal channels they go in with the window IN the door!

We are talking a late model car here, where they have a rubber channel that goes in the door around and over the top of the glass and down each side into the door. The window runs up and down in this channel. If the door is being replaced or many times even it is it just being painted we remove this channel so it can be painted properly around the channel. I saw him put a newly painted new door on a Toyota Sienna the other day. He put the glass in first, and THEN the channel. I watched him put the power window up, stuff some rubber channel down along the window then while pushing down on the channel roll the window down a little, then while pushing with all his might down on the channel to hold it, roll the window up a little, then push down on the rubber again while rolling the window down pushing the rubber a half inch or so and doing this over and over and over until the rubber was in.

He is the kind of guy who will listen to others tips and I have told him over and over to pull the glass out. On a late model car like this, it takes LITERALLY seconds to pull the glass out and put it back in. If you took longer than one minute to pull this glass out of a door and then reinstall it, I would say you need another trade, go cut grass or something but you aren't made for this business. It LITERALLY takes seconds, ten to 20 seconds tops to get that window out if you are sitting there looking at a door with no trim panel and moisture shield in place like he was. Besides, he PUT THE WINDOW IN FIRST! I had watched him for I am not kidding you, five or ten minutes trying to stuff this rubber channel in. He had sprayed it with a lube we have, his knuckles where red from the fighting to get this rubber in. I went over and asked, "Do they install that like that on the assembly line"? Let's see, a van like that rolls off the assembly line every 58 seconds or so, how do they do that when it takes 10 minutes to install this rubber?

He confided in me that he has a hard time getting the glass back in, a HARD TIME? HUH? A harder time than stuffing that rubber in there? I told him the next time he needs to do this I will give him a hand.

"How was it installed on the assembly line"? It's a real good question to ask yourself next time you are struggling with something.

Brian
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 09:41 AM
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the coil is there for two reasons. one it kills the vibration which in time will crack a line, two it makes it much easier and faster to connect the lines without using a flex line.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 10:09 AM
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Adressing the "assembly line" aspect of the conversation ...

The thought of having the master cylinder precariosly perched, hanging mid-air on top of 3/16" steel lines is preposterous to me. It would almost surely result in kinked and/or broken brake lines.

However, I can appreciate that having the coiled loops may make attaching the tubes to the master cylinder much easier, as the flexibilty provided by the loops would allow you to get the fitting properly aligned with the outlet ports on the M/Cyl -- in order to avoid the possibility of cross-threading.

This would also apply to master cylinder replacement(s) further down the road.

God knows why they wouldn't have just installed rubber brake hoses instead?

I'm no engineer, but ... I suppose that the idea may have been to reduce the number of physical connections, and the probability of leaks? Rubber deteriorates ... galvanized steel tubing ... not so much?
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 66GMC

This would also apply to master cylinder replacement(s) further down the road.

God knows why they wouldn't have just installed rubber brake hoses instead?

I'm no engineer, but ... I suppose that the idea may have been to reduce the number of physical connections, and the probability of leaks? Rubber deteriorates ... galvanized steel tubing ... not so much?
As a rule the manufacturer could care a diddly rats butt about repair or replacement down the road, it's ALL about money (time) spent on the assembly line and cost of the part. So adding a rubber hose would be adding cost, but it would make for a nice part to sell in the parts dept at your local dealer. But still, cost on the assembly line is what has to balance with the possible future sales and brake hoses are reproduced by the aftermarket pretty quickly so realistically I don't think the sales would of a hose would overcome the time and money savings of a simple steel line.

Reducing physical connections, leaks and parts are my guess as well, good point.

Brian
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 10:31 AM
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Of course all we need to do is go to "How stuff works" for all the answers in the universe.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-p...ends-loops.htm

Brian
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2012, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poncho62
And you think Mr Obama is clueless..........

The correct answer is in post #2.....of this 5 year old thread........
No offense, but I have always heard what Obamasucks said in his post from guys that work on cars for a living myself. All the vibration stuff mentioned I have never heard of.

I know the thread is old, but it would be nice to have the right answer in it.

Could it be both?
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2012, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eksessiv
No offense, but I have always heard what Obamasucks said in his post from guys that work on cars for a living myself. All the vibration stuff mentioned I have never heard of.

I know the thread is old, but it would be nice to have the right answer in it.

Could it be both?
No, again, look at the link I posted. And again, I laid it out.

"Under what circumstances would you put the lines on the master cyl before the master cyl was bolted to the booster or firewall? I have never worked on an assembly line but I just can't grasp this. If the master cyl went on first then the lines there would be no reason for these coils to "support" anything and if the lines were in first and then the master cyl was installed, again no reason to "support" anything, explain to this old guy would you please?"

And

"So putting that thought into play, how in the world could that master cyl be installed on the line where those coils would come into play to hold it in place? And another question, why the coils at all? The coils don't make it stronger! Coils aren't somehow going to support the master where a 90 degree bend wouldn't have.

Like I said, this is how I see it, if someone has other ideas if these guys who worked at Ford can explain it, please get the word because I don't get it."


And by the way, I work on cars for a living and have for 35 years.



Brian
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2012, 12:56 AM
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The only thing I'm trying to figure out is how the heck so many ridiculous theories have come out for such a simple thing? Loops and bends are widely used to absorb vibration, component movement, thermal expansion and contraction, etc... They aren't just used for tubing and piping either, I've seen them on some electrical systems onboard boats and ships in order to reduce stress on electrical connections. Working on cars for a living doesn't necessarily mean you have any understanding of relatively basic engineering principles. (Not talking about you Brian) Wait a minute, I may have just answered my initial question. Hmmm...
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2012, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snydski
I'm not sure but I was told by my dad , it added "feel" to the pedal ,or more touch control to power assisted units, to prevent lock ups. Which is unnecessary with today's anti lock brake systems. and I don't see them anymore for some reason .
mostly because of unitbody
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2012, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blazin72
The only thing I'm trying to figure out is how the heck so many ridiculous theories have come out for such a simple thing? Loops and bends are widely used to absorb vibration, component movement, thermal expansion and contraction, etc... They aren't just used for tubing and piping either, I've seen them on some electrical systems onboard boats and ships in order to reduce stress on electrical connections. Working on cars for a living doesn't necessarily mean you have any understanding of relatively basic engineering principles. (Not talking about you Brian) Wait a minute, I may have just answered my initial question. Hmmm...
Holly COW ! NO truer words ever spoken.

Talk about hitting the nail on the head, less not we forget the cut and past computer boys out here. Save that one for another thread.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2012, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latech
I say loop - de -loop. shirley temple is right.
I did not notice I have bourbon younger than this thread.LOL
I hope you are going to share that bourbon. Had a few myself last night. Little Basil Hayden with friends
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Chet
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