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  #16  
Old 05-17-2007, 12:05 PM
joe_padavano joe_padavano is offline
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re: Why high RPM's on the oval tack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NAIRB
Modern stock cars are far more advanced from a chassis stand point and we have gotten much better at applying that to the track.


I'll have to disagree with that. "Modern" "stock" cars still use a rear suspension geometry based on the one from an early 60s Ford pickup. I'd hardly call that modern - or stock for that matter. Most street driven cars have suspensions that are far more advanced than anything on the track in NASCAR. The one thing that HAS gotten much more advanced in the last 40 years is aerodynamics and airflow management. The combination of reduced drag and increased downforce, coupled with tire advancements, is mainly what's responsible for the speeds in NASCAR today.
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  #17  
Old 05-17-2007, 02:18 PM
steveyb4342 steveyb4342 is offline
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re: Why high RPM's on the oval tack?

Thats another thing Im very interested in, aerodynamics. Partly to try and make cars go faster. But more so because Im very interested in air racing. Piston powered aircraft racing at break neck speeds very low to the ground with huge amounts of power {in some classes}. Which means they must also be very aerodynamically efficient. Im just a big fan of anything that is powerful and goes fast.... unless its a 4cylinder. Sorry all you 4 bangers out there. Another cool thing is trying to strip as much weight from a car as possible, its amazing how creative you can get lol. I find it hard to believe {although i dont doubt you} that nascar is using TRUCK suspension from the 60's! . I guess whatever works, eh?

Steve
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  #18  
Old 05-17-2007, 02:46 PM
jimfulco jimfulco is offline
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re: Why high RPM's on the oval tack?

That high-zoot "truck arm" suspension somebody has on the market looks an awful lot like what's under the arse end of my '69 C-10. Have I got a hot-rod in disguise???
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  #19  
Old 05-17-2007, 03:05 PM
joe_padavano joe_padavano is offline
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re: Why high RPM's on the oval tack?

OK, I was wrong. NASCAR rear suspensions are based on 60s Chevy pickups, not Ford. From www.circletrack.com:

Quote:
NASCAR's premier divisions--Craftsman Truck, Busch, and Winston Cup--have rules in place that establish strict control over the designs of chassis that are totally fabricated. The front end is based on a '70s-era stock double A-arm conventional big spring suspension system that uses drag-link steering. The rear suspension is called a "truck-arm" system because it is basically a copy of a 1964 Chevy truck rear suspension.
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  #20  
Old 05-17-2007, 03:26 PM
oldbogie oldbogie is offline
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re: Why high RPM's on the oval tack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveyb4342
Thats another thing Im very interested in, aerodynamics. Partly to try and make cars go faster. But more so because Im very interested in air racing. Piston powered aircraft racing at break neck speeds very low to the ground with huge amounts of power {in some classes}. Which means they must also be very aerodynamically efficient. Im just a big fan of anything that is powerful and goes fast.... unless its a 4cylinder. Sorry all you 4 bangers out there. Another cool thing is trying to strip as much weight from a car as possible, its amazing how creative you can get lol. I find it hard to believe {although i dont doubt you} that nascar is using TRUCK suspension from the 60's! . I guess whatever works, eh?

Steve


Steve, has anyone told you you're crazy, lately?

Somebody said that NASCAR suspension is the same as his old truck. Well sort of. Your or his old truck although looking the same wouldn't last long at Daytona. By the same token, you're making a constant left hand turn at 200 mph on whats a pretty smooth road. The downforce in the corners on a banked oval are real high but this is a stiffness and strength issue more than a sensitivity to bounce and rebound, or even right hand turns. So these cars are point designed to that end, they would do well at Le Mans and those cars wouldn't do well at Daytona if either were forced to race the other track with no modifications. So strength and rigidity are traded for compliance with control at NASCAR. Its not unlike those pickups the factory's sell as off-road this and off road that. The typical Z-71 Silverado or TRD Tacoma off the showroom floor wouldn't get out of Ensenada let alone finish the Baja.

Bogie
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  #21  
Old 05-17-2007, 06:45 PM
steveyb4342 steveyb4342 is offline
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re: Why high RPM's on the oval tack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldbogie
Steve, has anyone told you you're crazy, lately?

Bogie


Not since I blew up my car racing a Z06, why do you ask? lol. Thats really cool about the modified truck suspension thing! Thanks for bringing that up!

Steve
PS: All racing was done in a legal manner.
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  #22  
Old 05-17-2007, 08:52 PM
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NAIRB NAIRB is offline
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re: Why high RPM's on the oval tack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_padavano
I'll have to disagree with that. "Modern" "stock" cars still use a rear suspension geometry based on the one from an early 60s Ford pickup. I'd hardly call that modern - or stock for that matter. Most street driven cars have suspensions that are far more advanced than anything on the track in NASCAR. The one thing that HAS gotten much more advanced in the last 40 years is aerodynamics and airflow management. The combination of reduced drag and increased downforce, coupled with tire advancements, is mainly what's responsible for the speeds in NASCAR today.



I'll agree to disagree with you. Have you ran a modified? Have you seen how well they hook up? I should know, I work with several track champions and I also work for probably the largest circle track supplier in the country.It is very high tech, and yes, they use some old school style suspensions but they are far more advanced than their predecessors.

The cars are far more potent in terms of how much bite they put on the track as compared to the old days, and I am speaking in terms of dirt track suspension technology. Just watch the suspension travel on modified. It's very high tech compared to the old days. Traction control systems, high tech shocks, and the list goes on.
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  #23  
Old 05-17-2007, 09:05 PM
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Blazin72 Blazin72 is offline
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re: Why high RPM's on the oval tack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NAIRB
I'll agree to disagree with you. Have you ran a modified? Have you seen how well they hook up?

I know exactly what you mean. I think they're the only class in which I've seen drivers attempt four wide racing (or at least close to it) without wrecking.
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  #24  
Old 05-22-2007, 06:49 PM
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re: Why high RPM's on the oval tack?

I found an interesting article that pertained to this thread so I thought I'd dig it up and share. I can't post the direct link because it only links to the main page so I'll quote it and leave instructions to find the actual page. The article is by David Reher of Reher-Morrison Racing Engines. The article can be found at www.rehermorrison.com then click on the "Tech Talk" link at the top of the page and scroll down to "Raising the Redline: Why RPM Matters".

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Reher
Looking back at the 2004 season, I can attribute much of the performance improvement in Pro Stock to faster engine speeds. It’s difficult to believe that 500cid Pro Stock engines now routinely turn 10,000 rpm, but the truth is plain to see on the data recorders and on the time slips.

The trend toward higher and higher engine speeds was also evident in NASCAR stock car racing until the rulemakers applied the brakes with new restrictions on rearend and transmission gear ratios. Now the growing interest in fast bracket racing, Top Sportsman, and Top Comp eliminators is bringing this same high-rpm technology to sportsman drag racers.

Why does turning an engine higher make a race car run faster? This is my final column of the year, so I’ll offer my ideas and hope that they give racers something to think about over the winter break.

The simple explanation is that raising rpm effectively increases an engine’s displacement. This might seem nonsensical because the volume displaced by the pistons doesn’t change, but consider the effects of filling and emptying the cylinders faster in real time. An internal combustion engine is an air pump, and if we turn that pump faster, we can theoretically burn more fuel in a given amount of time and consequently produce more power. For example, an eight-cylinder engine running at 6,000 rpm fires its cylinders 24,000 times in one minute (assuming perfect combustion). Increase the engine’s speed to 8,000 rpm and it will fire 32,000 times per minute, a 33 percent increase. The volume of air and fuel that moves through the engine is now equivalent to an engine with a much larger displacement. There are also 8,000 additional power pulses per minute transmitted to the crankshaft that can be harnessed to turn the wheels and accelerate the car.

Raising engine speed is analogous to supercharging or turbocharging a motor; the goal is to increase the volume of air and fuel that moves through the engine. The airflow is increased with a forced induction system by pressurizing the intake system; in a naturally aspirated engine, the airflow is increased by raising rpm. If done correctly, both approaches will increase power.

A higher revving engine also permits the use of a numerically higher gear ratio to multiply the engine’s torque all the way down the drag strip. Let’s say an engine that produces 1,000 horsepower at 7,000 rpm is paired with a 4.56:1 rearend gear ratio. If this engine is then modified to produce 1,000 horsepower at 8,000 rpm, it can now pull a 4.88:1 or 5:14:1 rearend gear without running out of rpm before reaching the finish line. The numerically higher gear ratio gives the engine a mechanical advantage by multiplying its torque by a greater number to accelerate the car faster – in effect, it has a longer lever to move the mass.

I learned this lesson many years ago when I started drag racing. I raced my little 302cid Camaro against 426 Hemis and 440cid Max Wedge Mopars. The big-inch engines had thunderous low-end power, but my high-revving 302 with a 4.88:1 rear gear would just kill them because they were all done at 5,800 rpm. My small-block had much less torque and horsepower, but I could multiply the power it had with a steeper gear ratio. The same principle applies to racing a Pro Stock or a Top Sportsman dragster. By turning more rpm, we can use a greater gear ratio to produce more mechanical advantage to accelerate the car.

There are limits to engine speed, of course. Higher rpm increases parasitic losses from friction and windage. The stability of the valvetrain also restricts engine rpm. However, with the technology developed in NASCAR and in Pro Stock, racers are learning how to build engines that operate reliably at high rpm. Research and development on valve materials, springs, rocker arms, and pushrods are now being applied to serious sportsman drag racing engines. In fact, I wish that I had some of the parts that we now install in our high-horsepower sportsman engines for our Pro Stock program a few years ago!

While increasing rpm is generally a good thing for a racing engine, it also puts more responsibility on the owner. A high-rpm combination requires more vigilance and more maintenance than a low-rpm motor. It’s important to check the valve lash frequently and to look for early warning signs such as weak or broken valve springs. Neglecting these parts in a high-rpm racing engine can produce some very expensive problems.

Raising an engine’s operating range also requires complementary changes in the drivetrain and chassis. A high-rpm sportsman engine really needs a high-stall torque converter to realize its potential. With an automatic transmission, the engine speed should ideally drop 1,000 to 1,300 rpm after a gear change. For example, if the converter stalls at 6,700 rpm, the engine should be shifted at around 8,000 rpm. Shifting this engine at 7,000 rpm would simply put the engine back on the converter, causing the converter to operate inefficiently and wasting horsepower by heating the transmission fluid.

I’m excited about the emerging trend toward fast sportsman drag racing. I enjoy working with customers who want to go fast because it gives me an opportunity to deliver the benefits of our Pro Stock R&D to other racers. Not every racer wants or needs a high-rpm engine, but if the goal is to have a fast car, raising the redline is a proven approach.
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  #25  
Old 05-22-2007, 07:33 PM
steveyb4342 steveyb4342 is offline
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re: Why high RPM's on the oval tack?

That was a VERY good article and it helped me understand a lot better! Thanks alot Blazin!

Thanks Steve
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  #26  
Old 05-23-2007, 07:50 AM
barnym17 barnym17 is online now
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re: Why high RPM's on the oval tack?

With the rear suspensions used in dirt oval track racing today hooking up 600 to 800 horsepower is being done every day.Even old school leaf springs get it done with some creative modifications carrying the left front wheel all the way down the track is common.The 4 bar system when right can take all the power you can give it on a tacky track these are not Nascrap cars.
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