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will epoxy primer orange peel be visible after paint?

36K views 139 replies 16 participants last post by  Lizer 
#1 ·
im moving along nicely with the bodywork on my car. i've completed the filler work, and went through 2 complete rounds of urethane priming and guidecoat. The body is the way I want It, nice and straight. I noticed when I did the deck lid, the Sherwin Williams Barret Jackson jet black single stage is thin and I applied a black epoxy primer over the body. my plan was to scuff with a grey scotchbrite and shoot it... I noticed after further scuffing that there is orange peel in the primer and the surface is rough. my question is, if I scuff it, after I shoot my paint, and cut and buff, will the roughness of the primer be visible?



thanks
 
#75 ·
This reminds me of when me and my wife opened a fitness center here where we live,,,,

They had a gym here that was here and bigger then we was... Well to make a long story short,,, The ownners of this big time gym try EVERYTHING you could think of to shut us down,, Sent spy's, Call ALL our memebers leaving things on their answering machines,, And the list goes on and on... Well One night I was going to go over there and raise seven kinds of H***,,, BUT My memebers seen how mad I was and ALL told me this... Randy you and your wife keep running your place and don't worry about them,,, They WILL push everyone right to you...... And guess what ??? They did just that,,, EVERYONE came to us...:D

Now the thing I was getting at here is.... I didn't even have to try to hurt them And I did... Didn't mean too.. But I did...So think about this little story I just posted.... :mwink:
 
#84 ·
EXACTLY!!!!! Good example Randy....
Pat,The bar has been set pretty high most of us have abused SPI epoxy to the limits and its simply the BEST out there...Try this for your next test and see what happens: leave a 1/2" or so of SPI in your gun and let it sit for 24 hrs then try to get it apart never mind cleaning it....It takes about three days but use gun cleaner, lacquer thinner wont touch it.Ive done this twice ,quite by accident.
Once the epoxy has cured try scraping off with a razor blade like I've done then wet it down (REAL WET) with thinner ,reducer anything you want and try scraping it off again and see if its softend, it hasnt ...The only thing as far as I know that will effect it is paint stripper...I've even got brake fluid all over mine when I forgot to fasten down my master cylinder cover,still nothing. gasoline /still no effect.
You should know that us body and paint guys are a very dedicated bunch to our brands, heck, there still a bunch of lacquer primer guys out there that even try anything else
Like I said the bars been set pretty high but if other companies take notice they might try selling a superior product at the lowest price possible then take SPI's business model and apply it they might do better,we're tired of sending the CEO's to the bahamamas for manicures and raising the prices every week to support all this crap....AND then theres the smaller companies trying to jump on the screw the paint and body shops band wagon selling cheap crap at cheap prices...Theres a big market out there for selling crap paint materials to hobiests and we try our best to warn them about this but for the ones that wont listen theres a big market aimed at them too.
So , if I can get glasurat for the price of Nason I'm going with Glasurat which would be just what SPI universal clear is like spraying I swear its the same stuff in a different can....
SPI IS the best and us pros love them, they've earned our respect...accept it...
My greatest fear is SPI selling out to PPG or Dopont but Barry has assured me he wont..
Try actually using some of that SPI epoxy on a car see how it sands and builds and you'll most likely be the next cult member all excited about how well it works....BTW, you can call me Mike
 
#77 ·
Lizer Gee I didn't mean to whine I'm so sorry, you do realize that we do have a following for over 20 years. Uncle Pat started this 1988 with no advertising all word-of-mouth. I didn't politic the magazines all I wanted to do was work on my car and not have to look for a job. I did my shows faced my customers every other weekend and took care problems when they arose.enjoyed the chat
 
#80 ·
I could not figure out out what you were or who but this is coming all together now.

Let recap:

Paint companies are having an activator problem: (you)
Sorry, bull chit, if you know how activators are made, it is not paint companies but "Paint company" Period.

I was an expert chemical witness lately in court. (you)
And your first test was with a foam roller????

I have a salt booth. (you)
In 30 years have never heard that term from a manufacturer, I don't have one but I do have a cabinet.

I bought self etch primer from SPI. (you)
Sorry SPI stop making self etch 5-8 years ago.

You really don't know the difference between epoxy and self etch, do you?

It was also you that recommended a urethane primer for coating a frame.

Now for you question, will self etch creep? Glad to see you were on the spi forum and reading about the salt spray test I posted, its a good education, that you will never get from people that DON'T make there own stuff but have it private labeled for them with no spec's, just a price worry.

Why don't you answer the question, MR professional witness and I will be happy to correct you, as you stumble and try to make things up, as i have 10,000's of hours on a wide range of products, including pictures that I have tested over the years.
That post I did with pictures on the SPI forum must really confused you, especially the one with the 2K primer, that you recommend for frames.
Maybe that is why they call boat bottom paint, "Urethane primer"! LOL

Like I said at the very beginning, life has kind of passed you by, try getting a hobby or a girlfriend, might make you a better person.
 
#81 ·
Hi Barry, good to hear from you. Let's see so many things to address salt spray cabinet or salt spray booth we call it a booth. As for the activators or anything can be contaminated the court case was involving moisture cured urethane against the National Paint Company of New Jersey. You are right. I no longer manufacture am not an expert on chemicals. I always had a trained staff for that. By the way, most of them make the paint and restore cars. I have not seen your salt spray tests. 10,000 hours is very impressive .Looking through your booklet I didn't see anything about salt spray or chemical resistance, outdoor exposure, all Mastercoat product data sheets contain that type of information.I'll have to visit your own the chat room as for the primer. I ordered through one of my dealers. We asked for the most anti-corrosive you had. I'll be the first to admit that I don't particularly care for epoxy, use some 10 years ago lifted the body work might've been my fault. The was last time I used it.The lab guys are now working on the new/ old zinc rich primer that'll be an epoxy I'm going to put an offshore oil rig on the label. Maybe next to it but an outline of the Duesenberg.well, the next generation have taken over the business but its like the Mafia. They keep pulling me back in keep up the good work
 
#82 ·
Wow, quite the admission, that you are clueless, like I pointed out before with your first post.

Now for your integrity!!!
You posted the order number on line and yet you had a friend order it in his name and you get on here and slander a company?
Holy chit, with friends like you, who the F needs enemies?
This tells me you are a ball-ess cu+t and not one ounce of integrity.

Now salt spray test, are you aware the majors have industrial companies divisions to meet the hours you seen to be in love with?
One that has some of the best epoxies in the world are S&W and they have a lot of different ones and yet their automotive one does not impress me at all, now why would that be?????
PPG bought an Atlanta company about 7 years ago and all they made was specialized epoxy, yet you see not of this in automotive refinish, wonder why???
Because, in third grade they learned that for every positive there is a negative! In third grade form that means you don't use an oil rig epoxy on a car and you don't use a car epoxy on a oil rig.

So send me your 10,000 hour test product and I will run a detailed with picture test and perhaps I could show you how it fails in one test at say 100-200 hours and then to be fair, the send test, I could make it last say 20,000 hours.
 
#86 ·
I'll say again, nobody ever bashed SPI or any other paint. I coated some test panels a week later, someone asked a question of what to do with a primer that had hardend So I took a panel I rubbed lacquer thinner and some came off. I did it again the following day a little less came off I did in the third day, just barely moved.as a matter of fact I said to Brian. It's good to have some kind of window so other paints could adhere. From that point on, I'm a liar, I'm bashing the product. My integrity's in question. My life is in question. My love lifes in question Urethane primer on a frame unheard of! I'm a coward because one of my guys ordered paint. This battle has nothing to do with the product but has everything to do with the commercials. This is been going on for years as demonstrated by other boards.:evil:
 
#88 ·
This is just ludicrous how Pat has been attacked here, LUDICROUS! He has been a gentleman and replied to the attacks like a gentleman this really needs to stop!

I think he has explained himself well enough that we can move on with life and understand that there was no "attack" of SPI products here. And if there was, simply show or explain yourself and that is all there is needed.

Geeeeez guys, we all have different experiences on stuff, different ways to do things, hell I LOATH Harbor Freight and their junk tools but many guys go and buy them and get something done with them.

There are a ton of great guys here, I have been a regular visitor to this site for for almost 10 years now because of the amazing knowledge and great personalities here, let's lighten up a little.

Brian
 
#91 ·
Holy crap what amazing life experiences you have had!
By contrast, I was delivering newspapers on my Stingray when you were walking the jungles of Naim. :sweat:

Brian
 
#97 ·
It happens because after a while we always realize how we are all human at some point! There is no face, we are looking at squiggly lines on a monitor, not a "person". Then after we get that image of a human being just like us, the hatred goes away.

Brian
 
#100 · (Edited)
So then I noticed a spot under the plastic that was much worse since the plastic held the moisture there,I thought if there was a spot that the rust would bleed through under the epoxy this would be it but its the same zero bleedthrough as the other spots...Since this car had an adheasion problem to begin with I thought this last spot would surely have some rust under the primer but it did not...heres that spot with a few other pics...I was pretty impressed with the SPI before but NOW ,more than ever.
 

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#102 ·
Your welcome....Just so we're clear...we call acid primers etch primer and even though epoxy is a self etching primer we dont call it that, just epoxy.epoxy is also a 2k primer but we call urathane 2k not epoxy...so if you really want to start so sheet call SPI epoxy etch primer and watch allhell break loose.:mwink:
 
#103 ·
again, thank you. The last steel car I painted I primed it with the Mastercoat silver, DuPont and Fill and Sand then a couple coats of red Centari. I'm not in the body shop supply business. As I said earlier, I had a little problem with epoxy quite sure was probably my fault. Having used any since There are so many combos zinc rich, zinc phosphate, acid etch . The guys on my staff their younger they are always painting cars and always correcting me I got one for you if I told you I could paint that Camaro with 1 quart of paint and cover it. would you believe me?
 
#104 ·
Well....mabee you could but its going to take two gallons for me since the first gallon spilled on the floor....I do have a cool looking floor though that gives everyone a chuckle.

everyone but me thats a 350.00 spot on the floor:mad:
thats the second time I've done that in over 35 yrs and both times it was red paint ... also the only accident I've ever been in was in a red car ,Reds always been bad luck for me...
 

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#108 ·
I like the chalk outline in the red blob. Nice touch. My problem is silver primer. Every time I dropped the can, it would open. I have spots marked in silver blob in Carlisle and Charlotte motor Speedway. Charlotte was really pissed, Some days it pays to stay in bed.
 
#109 ·
A paint shop I used to deal with years ago had a black blob like that on the floor in the show room. At the time there were some door to door salesmen who sold a cleaner, I haven't seen anything like this in years, now it's magazine subscriptions. :rolleyes: But at the time it was this cleaner, in a spray bottle. So the guys at the paint store would tell the salesmen with the cleaner "If you can clean that spot up I'll buy some". Poor buggers of course couldn't even come close. But if they started talking about what it could do, "sorry, if it can't clean that we aren't interested". At a paint store MANY years ago they had a guy put a gallon of paint on the rear seat and it flipped over and opened on the drive home. Just who does something so stupid I would like to know? Maybe the person at my work a while ago who put a BBQ with HOT COALS in the back of their Lexus RX400 and it fell over burning a bunch of interior panels to the tune of a few thousand dollars damage! Yeah, that's the kind of person. :rolleyes:


Brian
 
#110 ·
Originally Posted by Pats55
Great story. Let's not talk about SPI. Let's talk about self etching primer what happens when you scratch it. Will rust travel beyond scratch?
---------------------------------------------------------------------

If you are serious, then fine as I was about post another contradiction.
I will play anyway you want, in meantime the answer to your question:

Yes, creep-age is a way to measure a products ability to stop the creeping
Zinc helps some products some, pigment sacrificers do better but bottom line is there is no stopping the creeping of rust once it starts.

Acid etch usually comes in worse then urethane's-DTM , epoxy and a lot of times even 2k's that are not made to be DTM.

Here is how a creep-age test is done, you can see the panel; has a scribe mark made with a flat head screw drive.
http://www.spiuserforum.com/showthread.php?2548-Interesting-epoxy-test&p=28787#post28787
 
#111 ·
I though about this all the way to work, the best product to resist creeping I would guess would be powder-coat but one thing I want to point out with this statement is there are a lot of grades of powder-coat like with all paints, some good, some ok, some excellent..
I make this statement based on the best ones.
 
#114 ·
Yes the coatings businesses is fascinating. Did you know that Steelcoat had an epoxy that when applied over oil would suck the oil into the coating.Another item that I found was a calcium sulfonate compound used between plates on bridges. The problem for me is my family is still connected to the coatings industry.I have Q panels with a couple of different coatings one with the calcium sulfonate solution.With a moderators permission I would like to show you these
 
#115 ·
I don't think they would care, show it! Teach us something.

What people don't realize is Auto Refinish is the smallest division of the paint industry, industrial coatings is way bigger.
They have cold weather epoxies, a few specialized ones that actually use an ISO to cure.
Of course to be a big-big company, you better be selling house paint.

Fastest growing right now I do believe is the UV cured coatings used for manufacturing, 3 minutes and you can do what you want with the part.
I think Powder coat is next in line for most growth.
 
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