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-   -   Windage trays (http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/windage-trays-123419.html)

ernkazern 09-01-2007 07:41 AM

Windage trays
 
How much horsepower can be gained by putting a windage tray in a stock SBC oil pan? 1, 3, 5, none? I also recall reading that a windage tray will keep the camshaft from being oiled properly on a street car, so they're best used only on race engines. Is that true?

Jmark 09-01-2007 08:12 AM

What I found a few days ago while reading up on Crane cams is that they strongly advise to stay away from windage trays due to the lack of splash oil getting to the cam and the loss of cam cooling too.

Mark

KULTULZ 09-01-2007 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jmark

Crane cams strongly advise to stay away from windage trays due to the lack of splash oil getting to the cam and the loss of cam cooling too.

...hmmph...

Was this on flat tappet only?

ernkazern 09-01-2007 09:05 AM

Windage trays
 
Now that you mention it, the Crane web site may be where I heard about not using windage trays.
Thanks

coldknock 09-01-2007 09:24 AM

This has to be a new idea. GM used windage trays on Corvette engines from the factory. I think the LT1 engines in Camaros had them too.

Btw, if your crank is dipping into the oil, you've got too much oil in it. The rod side clearance is where oil for the pistons and cam should come from. There's a little from the drain holes next to the lifters and some hemorrhaging from the lifterbore/cam bearing/journal clearance but the majority comes from the crank slinging oil from between the rods. A windage tray will not touch that supply.



Larry

Jmark 09-01-2007 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KULTULZ
...hmmph...

Was this on flat tappet only?

From how I read their site, it appears to be aimed at flat tappet cams. Here is their quote from "cam and lifter failures".

Since the tray is under the crank, I don't see much of a big deal, but i'm just the messenger! LOL

NOTE: Do not use synthetic oil during the break-in period. It is not recommended to use any type of oil restrictors to the lifter galley, or use windage trays, baffles,or plug any oil return holes in the valley. Oil has a two-fold purpose, not only to lubricate, but to draw the heat away from whatever it comes in contact with. The cam needs oil splash from the crankcase, and oil run-back from the top of the engine to help draw the heat away. Without this oil flow, all the heat generated at the cam is transferred to the lifter, which can contribute to it's early demise.

willys36@aol.com 09-01-2007 09:43 AM

All early hemis came w/ windage trays from the factory.

ernkazern 09-01-2007 03:08 PM

Windage trays
 
I wonder if Crane was only referring to using a windage tray during cam break in.
Here's some info someone sent o me from another web site. http://www.crank-scrapers.com/

engineczar 09-01-2007 06:01 PM

They might be referring to a lifter valley tray.

sel2real 09-01-2007 10:38 PM

i put a canton windage tray in when i built my motor 7 years ago that has since been through break-in, NUMEROUS test & tune sessions at the local dragstrip, 10+ sessions at willow springs, 1 hot rod power tour, multiple trips to & from san diego and the bay area, or san diego and vegas... etc. the car is still consistent in the 1/4mi dragstrips and at willow springs today, as it was 6 years ago....

KULTULZ 09-02-2007 02:12 AM

It seems to me that a tray is beneficial in that a tray prevents the crank from whipping up a foam in the pan oil level due to wind-age. The oil that lubricates the cam is actually thrown off the crank throws. I don't see how a tray would not be beneficial (serrated).

Kevin_Johnson 09-16-2007 02:54 AM

re windage trays
 
Edit: For some reason my new posts to the thread do not seem to be showing up. Yes, Crane states this -- I checked before posting. It is under 1. A) at cranecams.com/?show=faq&id=1

A constructive solution might be to add the often seen OEM oil ejector slots on rod faces that are aimed at the thrust surfaces of the piston bores. The oil ejected from these slots would include the cam in their upper quadrant sweep. This is an extremely simple mod to do.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Windage control devices help keep the oil running cooler and in a way that dedicated oil coolers do not. This is certainly critical in cooling the camshaft efficiently.

Once the energy from the rotating assembly is transferred to the oil by hitting it or moving it the oil rises in temp. That is energy that is lost forever to make your engine perform better. It is also allowing the exact opposite of the dual (lubrication/cooling) function of oil.

Windage trays are meant to prevent this sort of parasitic loss from oil splashing onto the crank and to shield the sump oil from windage effects. Many trays have scraper louvers built into them that strip away oil from the windage cloud. The louvers also help disrupt the pressure differential that forms around the spinning crank (the differential allows the windage cloud to form). Disrupting the pressure differential allows more oil -- not less -- to be directly and immediately ejected in the upper two quadrants where the SBC camshaft sits -- thereby cooling and lubricating it. This oil would otherwise be drawn into the cloud. The windage tray operates in the lower two quadrants of crank rotation. The windage cloud is self-renewing from oil ejected from the mains, rods and draining down from the lifter valley and heads.

It is a common misperception that a windage cloud will not form because of a windage tray and that a windage cloud comes primarily from splashing oil in the sump. The latter might be true during abrupt manuevers but during steady driving a windage cloud will form with or without a tray in place. It will increase in oil entrainment as a function of rpm because of the higher pressure differential formed. To increase oil entrainment volume it will simply capture a larger amount of ejected and draining oil before reaching equilibrium.

Once the oil has absorbed heat from the camshaft and lifter it needs to be removed as quickly and efficiently as possible so that new, fresh -- and cooler -- oil can take its place. Just like the water cooling system in a car -- circulation is needed.

If still additional oil flow is needed to cool the lobes or lifters then dedicated passages or devices need to be devised to do so. This is just like using oil to cool the underside of pistons in turbo or highly tuned NA engines. In those applications windage trays are typically seen more often rather than subtracted as the tech tip logic would dictate.

Windage control helps keep sump oil temps down as mentioned in the beginning but running a dedicated oil cooler will help keep oil that is moving through the galleys -- then to the cam and lifters -- cooler. An oil cooler, though, cannot give back the energy lost when it rejects it to the atmosphere -- as windage control devices can by preventing the energy loss/transference in the first place. Both cooling approaches are valuable.

Also the "do not use a windage tray" advice contraindicates any sort of dry sump system as it removes much more oil from the crankcase and more quickly as well. Think about it.

I think the cams are clearly pushing the limits of the materials and design of the components and many plausible sounding things are being thrown out in an effort to lengthen that life. This advice, though, appears to be a step backwards.

Notorious 09-16-2007 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coldknock
This has to be a new idea. GM used windage trays on Corvette engines from the factory. I think the LT1 engines in Camaros had them too.

Btw, if your crank is dipping into the oil, you've got too much oil in it. The rod side clearance is where oil for the pistons and cam should come from. There's a little from the drain holes next to the lifters and some hemorrhaging from the lifterbore/cam bearing/journal clearance but the majority comes from the crank slinging oil from between the rods. A windage tray will not touch that supply.

Larry

True, both Corvette and F-bodied LT1s use them and I'd assume the iron head ones in the larger cars do as well. I can't really imagine Crane's reasoning if they indeed stated this, especially across the board. In many engine designs, it's actually beneficial to restrict the pressurized oil supply to the cam, and thus the rest of the valve train too, when modifying for harder and higher RPM use. I can't imagine the lobes being dependent upon splash from below, as they are also lubed as mentioned above as well as from the valley drainage in many cases, as part of the oil return system.

GCD1962 09-16-2007 06:57 PM

My 70 LT-1 Short Block came stock with a windage tray. I also use a lifter valley baffle to keep hot oil off the bottom of the intake. Windage trays have proved their benefit for nearly 40 years in performance engine. It seems that maybe Crane is trying to cover "all the bases" for the poor cam blanks and lifters that are resulting in cam lobes being wiped out during break in. The LT-1 short block has been in my '62 Vette since 1973 and I have had zero problems. I had the heads and pan off last year while doing a frame replacement and the inside of the engine, including cam and lifters are still perfect after all the years.

Kevin_Johnson 09-17-2007 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GCD1962
My 70 LT-1 Short Block came stock with a windage tray. I also use a lifter valley baffle to keep hot oil off the bottom of the intake. Windage trays have proved their benefit for nearly 40 years in performance engine. It seems that maybe Crane is trying to cover "all the bases" for the poor cam blanks and lifters that are resulting in cam lobes being wiped out during break in. The LT-1 short block has been in my '62 Vette since 1973 and I have had zero problems. I had the heads and pan off last year while doing a frame replacement and the inside of the engine, including cam and lifters are still perfect after all the years.

There have been a lot of problems with the reformulated oils with respect to cam breakin due to the additives being restricted. Once the galling process starts, no amount of oil will stop it.

I read a lot of forums and have felt bad over how some reputable cam manufacturers had their names dragged though the mud by people who didn't realize the reformulation had taken place.


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