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windstar trans/motor problem

7K views 26 replies 7 participants last post by  bentwings 
#1 ·
I searched the knowledge base but got nothing so here goes.
I have a 98 Ford Windstar 3.8 w/elect od. Initially it had some kind of mis fire on 1 and 4. (scanner)I replaced the coil,plugs and wires. This seemed to help for a day or so. Now I was driving down the road about 45-50 and bam..it down shifts from od to 2nd gear!! WTH is going on. So I get back up to speed again and pow it does it again. It's just like I shifted it manually down to 2nd except faster. Then as I am at a lower speed it starts hunting between 2nd and od. needless to say it's got to be tough on the trans. I had the trans just break right in rush hour traffic about 2 years ago. 2500 bucks for that one. At least I was able to back traffic up for a mile or so. LOL. Anyway on the way home at about 30 mph it is constantly shifting up and down.
anybody have any ideas???
 
#2 ·
A bad MLP (Manual Lever Position) Sensor will make those trans do some weird things. On that trans I believe it sits right on top of the trans. Looks like a fancy neutral safety switch, which in a way it is. It tells the PCM what gear your selector arm is in. When acting up it can let your computer think you are manually shifting into different gears while you are driving. A good scantool can monitor the output voltage of this sensor while driving. Just one of many possibilities, but I have seen them go bad on those Fords. Best thing unfortunately may be to have a qualified trans technician look at her before serious damage is done.


 
#3 ·
windstar

demorris is on the right path replace mlp switch also replace speed sensor, windstar has exhaust too close to speed sensor heat cooks it way too often, shield the new sensor with heat wrap of some sort or you will replace the speed sensor every few month's.


ohh by the way its a bear to get too......
 
#5 ·
thanks a pile guys

Thanks for the tips. I've suspected the trans for a while but I had to go after the plugs,wires and coil first. This problem and motor tune problem has been plaguing me a month now. Unfortunately all the trans shops are closed this weekend.
Will the OBD 2 pick up trans problems like this.???
I can hustle over to the "Zone" and have them scan it again. I also looked around for a scanner of my own. O'Rielys has one for around 200-300that is supposed to do it all. They claim it will also work on my 99 Dodge diesel so I could justify it that way.
thanks again guys. If this gets fixed I can go back to work on my Willys.
bentwings
 
#6 ·
A code reader will do you no good unless you have a 'check engine' light on. A sensor can still give innacurate readings without setting a code. A trained tech will monitor 'live data' through a good scanner and watch for irregular sensor outputs to the PCM. If you can get live data and a manual that gives proper sensor outputs you may be able to catch something yourself.

 
#7 ·
check engine lite

There is no doubt about the "check engine lite" It's been reset about a dozen times by a couple shops. I think you are absolutely right about the real time thing. A couple things stand out in your post which have been nagging me too. one is the "trained" the other is "good...". The local shops are reluctant to ride around untill something happens. time is $$. It's been a good long while since I worked in the auto shop and spent time in the auto classroom. In fact there weren't computers especially in cars so we had to rely on experience, repair manuals, symtom lists, and hands on fixin', and most of all road tests....sometimes taking the car over night. I have the greatest respect for the computer and especially the concept of the computer making "inaccurate" readings. I'm sure there are reasons but sometimes you have to rely on gut feeling and experience regardless of what the "sensor" is saying (sounds like Scotty and the Enterprise). After all it is still an IC motor and an automatic trans....now controled by electronics instead of "inferior" mechanical devices. Nevertheless the controls are there and we just have to adapt to how they work and perform.
What is y'alls recommendation for a scanner?????

An acquaintance is a builder in a trans shop so I'll hit him Monday. If this doesn't work I'll have to get a scanner and start a "fishing trip".
Have a good week end and thanks for the help.
bentwings
 
#8 ·
Bentwings, i bought an auto xray scanner, its ford specific, but i can upgrade to gm chrysler foreign etc, just $$$ is all..... it's for the obd1, it does moniter real time functions, i love it. there's a good thread, " whats your favorite scan tool and why?" in the lounge i think, i'll see if i can find it....
don't forget to look on ebay, thats where i found mine.......

(i just figured DMorris was tired of me warting him all the time, so i went and bought one.:mwink: )

scan tool thread
 
#9 · (Edited)
Heck Larry, never get tired.:D Most of us are here simply trying to help others out. Unfortunately with this type of stuff it is much trickier. Would be much easier if it was a neighbor and I could simply hook my scanner up on a Saturday afternoon but this is the Internet and we are forced to try and guess and rely on previous failure patterns sometimes. If you could find someone willing to spend a little after-hours time with you for some cash that would be great. Basically the scantool allows you to monitor what voltage the PCM is seeing from the MLP while you are driving. During a glitch you would need to be able to 'see' the error. For example it may output 3.45V when your selector is in OD but while driving if that voltage dropped to 2.25V the PCM would think you just manually shifted gears. These are made up values as I don't have service manual info for your car. In the same manner the VSS (Vehicle Speed Sensor) may be sporadically loosing it's signal. The PCM may think you are doing 35MPH when you are actually doing 50MPH and it is trying to downshift. You could guess and replace the MLP or VSS but I hate to see people spend money on a guess. This is the main thing that keeps me away (usually) from this type of situation over the Internet because I hate to feel responsible for anyone wasting their money on a bad guess. I hope you get a break soon somehow and get her fixed to let us know the fault. If you have questions as to how something works feel free to ask. We can tell you what any sensor does but finding a bad part over the Internet unfortunately is a bit more difficult. Happy Easter anyway. ;)

PS. Just an add-on to give you an idea of what you are dealing with over a trans problem. A buddy of mine had a late model Explorer that would neutral out every time from a stop in Drive. If you manually shifted into 2 it would start off and then you could upshift into drive and she would shift right up into overdrive and lock up the converter like normal. As soon as you came to a stop she had to be shifted back into 2 again 'cause she had no first. The first three places he took it to told him he needed a trans and quoted him a few thousand dollars. Convinced it didn't need a whole trans (only 47,000 easy miles on her) he kept trying and the forth guy he took it to had this little two bay trans shop, nothing fancy and privately owned. The guy fixed it for a few hundred dollars and sent him happily on his way. I have witnessed guys misdiagnose transmissions that only needed a sensor for something because they just aren't trained right (at dealerships and independents) or can't spend the time on her like already mentioned. Unfortunately it is often easier to just say "needs a new one" than to repair her. My friend gave me that guys name and his shops phone number so I will have it. I checked around and apparently this guy holds a very good reputation. When I find an honest reputable person like that I keep that info handy for future reference.

PSS. To our transmission guys here at hotrodders do not take that last paragraph as a bashing on trans guys (I mentioned dealerships and independents not acting professionally) as I have seen just as many poorly trained engine mechanics as well selling bucketloads of engine parts because they couldn't find the problem the first time. Seems to many companies today just don't want to invest in well trained technicians for all types of repairs. Just my opinion.


 
#10 ·
nasty problem

thanks for the info again dmorris and larry. I agree on the long distance analysis both on the receiving end and the giving end. You are very wise on the comments. As you pointed out it is tough to find someone who will really try to hit the thing needed to fix the problem rather than the "fishing trip" or just replace everything and wind up with a big unnessary repair bill.
When I worked in the auto shop in the 60's the only real diagonistic tool we had was an oscilloscope better known as a "scope" It took a good deal of experience to pick out ignition and motor problems with them. We all spent a lot of after hours time looking at cracked dist caps, damaged wires, fouled plugs. We also tested our own cars as well as any other problem cars. After a while you could spot individual problems pretty easily and "it misses when it's cold/hot" or it has "lost power" or "not running right" were common problem we fixed without running up the "fishing trip" repair bills. "We were a small shop as you noted but had a good list of return customers.

Now that you mention the VSS (vhicle speed sensor) this was replaced last fall when I had the wheel bearings fixed. yes a front wheel bearing actually did go up in smoke and noise. I think the original VSS may have been damaged during the repair. Anyway it was replaced. Funny how a few questions will jog the memory. Anyway I'm going to hit the trans shop Monday. I'll fill in what happens. I have 2 other trans shops to go to also. All offer free or low cost testing.

bentwings
 
#11 ·
once again

Hi again
Well 2 days in the trans shop and the problem is still there. I spoke at length with the mgr who personaly tested the van for the better part of 3 hours each of 2 days...at no charge. He agrees that the trans shifter sensor (MLP forgot it's term.) can be faulty and not give a code as well as the trans speed sensor (VSS term.?). He said he would replace these but he feels there is a motor problem that should be addressed first. He also said he didn't want to get into replacing parts just because of gut feelings. This just gets into unnecessary repair bils. The trans tested excellent throughout all of his tests...infact as good as any he has seen. He said he really doesn't do motor tune up and only has code equipment which does trans specific and motor as it applies. Here are the codes that came up:
po 301 cyl #1 mis fire
po 304 cyl #4 mis fire
po 1513 imrc bank 2 stuck closed
As he said he wasn't into motor tune and said he didn't have a list that indicated the po 1513 code.....any ideas??

this sounds ominous...
how much are these things?

It sounds like I will have to take a short (expensive??) fishing trip and hope the h....l I don't catch any carp or gar (I live in the south) LOL It would be nice to land a Walleye but they are rare down here if y'all know what I mean. more likely gd catfish

I just got a sheet of .018 ss steel so I can fab a nice heat shield (as noted) too. It TIG welds great if you use the right filler.

so ya don't have to re read I have done plugs, plug wires, coil, air cleaner, fuel filter (twice), new batt, 4 tires, I even washed it. Muff shop says the muff brgs will last another 100k and stop pulling their chain LOL.

I gotta get this fixed ...d... it The Willys is crying over neglect..it's motor is silent, the rad is cold, dust is gathering on its body, it is wailing because I haven't given it's weekly due ($$$).

thanks for all the help.
bentwings
 
#12 · (Edited)
Well unfortunately I don't have access to any manuals here but if you have a cyl. 1 & 4 misfire and have already replaced coil pack, wires , and plugs I can only think of a couple of possibilities. One possible would be a module. One other thing I've seen but only with certain manifold styles (can't remember yours) is where the EGR valve is bolted to the intake and uses passages through the intake for EGR flow the passages become partially blocked causing too much exhaust to enter certain cylinders causing a misfire in those cylinders under light acceleration. If I'm not mistaken cyl. 1 & 4 might fire together (they usually fire cylinders in pairs) so their may be a connection there (head gasket). In a dual-fire system if one cylinder is bad it will sometimes cause a misfire in the cylinder that fires with it. Ford also uses a set of butterflies in some of their intake that open under hard acceleration. I believe the IMRC stands for Intake Manifold Runner Control. These are usually seen looking at the front of the engine from the passenger side of the car. They look like a small vacuum diaphragm in front of each head (they could also be at the rear of the head). They also have been known to fail here and there. Bank 2 'should' be the front bank (cylinder head), emphasis on should be. Ford calls them left and right IMRC and even though right should be the rear head it is actually the front head on most IMRC listings. I think these are fairly inexpensive and easy to change. Maybe removing the upper intake plenum, giving the intake a good cleaning, check the lower intake for possible EGR passages and cleaning if there (we used to use pipe cleaners), new gaskets and a look into those IMRC valves might not be a bad idea. As far as the trans goes, the MLP sensor is the easiest to replace and sits right on top of the trans. If you ever replaced a neutral safety switch you can do it your self. The new one should be set to line up in either Park or Neutral when installed just like a neutral safety switch. Hope this is helping, any more info let us know. Don.

 
#13 ·
dmorris,
I chased down the IMRC and found the vac motors I guess you would call them and moved them by hand . The back side one (bank 1) moved freely however the front one (bank 2) seemed to stick at about 1/4 in travel. I wiggled it around a bit and it seemed to free up. The test is to apply vac to the ports on the vac motors but I diddn't have any tubing the right size. (Later today) I think the Zone has these. I also found more oil inthe rubber belllows to the air cleaner. I wiped it out again and sprayed elec contact cleaner (not carb cleaner) on the sensor in the bellows. Hope that's ok. I started the car and let it warm up and it seemed to run ok. I feel a very slight unstableness in the idle. I put it in drive and set the e brake and stepped on the foot brake and floored the gas. It pulled pretty good and didn't miss so maybe the problem is gone temporarily. I really suspect this IMRC so I'll vac test it alater today. My wife needed the car again today so she drove off early this morning. She said it ran the best it has run in a month. Maybe those 2ndary shafts are the problem. I'll shag after them later today when she gets home.
thanks again for all the help. I really appreciate it. I'll post a summary of all this so it will be in the archives. Maybe I'll get to work on the Willys for a while today.
bentwings
 
#14 ·
I don't think those IMRC valves cost that much. Probably not a bad idea to replace it. It should have a small 'R' on it to designate it is the right IMRC, the left one has a small 'L' stamped on it's mounting bracket (usually). If it failed before it will most likely fail again. In you intake duct by your air cleaner is your MAF sensor housing. The sensor itself is usually removable on Fords with a tamper-proof Torx socket (tamper-proof Torx screws are like regular Torx screws but with a nub in the center so a regular Torx socket won't fit). If you remove the sensor itself from the housing it is cleanable with regular carb cleaner and we usually blow them dry with an air gun after cleaning. A clean MAF will do wonders for an engine. Make sure you have a new PCV valve in her to witch will help reduce blow-by from getting into the intake tubing. I would still consider removing that upper intake plenum, you should be able to do it with a basic manual and hand tools. This will allow you to examine the lower intake ports and check for those EGR passages, do a little cleaning, and replace the plenum to lower intake gasket which are notorious for causing vacuum leaks when they get old. You should be able to remove the upper plenum with the throttle body still attached to the upper plenum on most cars, you just need to disconnect any linkage, vacuum hoses, etc.. Keep us informed.

 
#15 ·
This sounds like a fine thing to do on a rainy Saturday. LOL I'll go over to AZ in the morning and see if they have a couple of the IMRC servos. I'm sure I have enough tools to do the manifold so I'll pick up what ever gaskets are needed and plan on taking this apart. I have to do it soon or it will get to blame hot out side and my Willys has flat told me he is not sitting out in the hot sun while I play nursmaid to the van.
My wife said the van ran ok this morning when it was cool but acted up later . It didn't down shift like it has been but she said it did lose power but not as bad. I think the pointer is settling in the area you suggested...the mainifold EGR passages and these intake manifold runnner controls.
I sure do appreciate all of the help. I'll keep you posted.

bentwings
 
#17 ·
more problems

Well now that the family problems have been dealt with I can get back to the fleet problems. I don't get migraines but I'm working on them. Here is some inside info...buy Bayer now I'm headed over to the gro. store for a new supply of asprin.
60 convert...I have reset the codes so many times that the button is getting worn. The way I've been lead is that the codes won't reappear unless the fault occurs 3 times during a single start of the motor.
As it turns out the down shifting has stopped but the motor still runs rough and will kick on the check engine lite within a mile or so.
I'm going to make a major effort tomorrow to test everything again and possibly replace 1 or both of the IMRC servos. Then that failing I may try the manifold r/r.
Mean time the d... infamous lift pump is out of the d...dodge diesel so I have to replace that tonight..absolutely for sure as this is my last running vehicle. The local diesel shop assured me that it is less than an hour job. The mech said it is possible with a cresent wrench and a screw driver. The last time I heard about a no sweat job it took the better part of a week and 1/2 a set of special tools.
aren't cars and trucks fun?????
thanks for all the help
well I have to get started.
bentwings
 
#19 ·
whooo hooo automotive success!!

HI, Finally I've had automotive success after a month of failures!!! whoo hooo I got a new Cummins lift pump yesterday at the local diesel shop. 185 bucks. I probably could have done a bit better but this was in my very neighborhood so with travel shipping etc it was ok.
This one has year warantee unlimited miles. I told the mgr to make sure he had one in May of next year!! LOL He said he would.
Idle pressure is 14 psi inlet
13 psi at the filter outlet should be fine I think.
Here is how I installed it.:
tools:
7/16 ratchet wrench or 7/16 combination wrench
10mm ratchet wrench
11/16 or 17 mm x 3/8 socket
short 3/8 ratchet
long flop head ratchet optional
optional long 3/8 extension +3 inch extension both with wobble end

how to do it:
disconnect wire on pump
open clip on engine dip stick and move the tube over a bit
remove inlet line bracket bolt
loosen 3 pump bracket bolts loosen inlet line banjo fitting
loosen outlet banjo fitting at the top of the filter and at pump
remove 3 pump bracket nuts and washers
remove inlet banjo fitting and washers
remove filter banjo bolt and washers
lower pump away from bracket and lift out. carefull of dirt in the fittings
transfer outlet line from old pump to the new pump careful of washers
leave slightly loose 1/6 turn
install new pump with 2 studs closest to the block
install 2 nuts and washers and tighten
tighten outlet line banjo fittings
install inlet banjo. becarefull of washers and dirt leave loose
rotate inlet line bracket over hole in pump bracket
install bracket bolt
tighten inlet banjo fitting, tighten bracket bolt
install new wire harness (if needed)
install wire harness bracket and tighten 3rd pump nut and washer
reclip the motor dip stick tube
your are done ...easy huh.

ok you need to prime the pump and filter
I installed my pressure gage without the gage and submerged the open end in diesel fuel
turn on the key to on for 30 seconds. this is as long as the lift pump will run turn the key off
wait about 1 minute and repeat
you should have seen a few bubbles this means the pump ran
I pulled the line and closed the filter up
start the motor..it may knock like h..l for a few seconds..normal
the idle will be 200 rpm low for about 1 minute as it purges the air out of the system
turn the motor off and plug in your gages
start it up and check the inlet pressure 10-15 is ok I guess
check outlet..you should have less than 4 psi drop. more replace the filter
Take it for a test drive and kick some a....
flat rate is only about .8 on this and probably is about right
all of the pump bolts on mine had heavy loctite on them and backed out of the pump instead of the nuts coming off. It took a lot of wrenching and swearing around to finally get the studs out of the pump and off the bracket.
the book says you need to remove the starter but the local diesel mech put me on to this. He had 8 of them to do this week.
oh yeah. If you have a big brush guard do yourself a favor and cut a board about 1 foot x 2 feet and lay it across the guard and the radiator. It is much easier on the knees.
I have another story about what was inside the old pump but I'll post that later.

now for the rest of the fleet.

bentwings
 
#21 ·
what happened to my lift pump

Lacking a digital camera I will have to use prose to discribe the guts of my lift pump (fuel transfer pump). Some may not have a clue as to what this pump does so in a few words, it simply transfers fuel (diesel) from the tank to the main high pressure fuel injection pump. Now the MHPFIP (MP) is not very good at suction so this is the job of the lift pump. It provides about 12 to 15 psi constantly to the main pump. The excess fuel is used to cool and lubricate the MP. Without this your MP dies and your wallet is 3000 lighter.
I installed the new lift pump immediately after removing the old one being a bit frustrated about how difficult the bolts were to remove, and didn't pay much attention to the old one.
I finally got the truck running and all was fine. The lift pump is nothing more that an electric motor attached to a small 4 vane rotor in a cavity. About 1 1/4" dia..pretty small. Hot rod electric fuel pumps are exactly the same. Carter, Holly and a few others. There are 3 bolts that hold a cover over the rotor cavity and a 3/8" inlet and outlet opening. A banjo type fitting is used in either end to connect the lines. The pump cavity and the motor housing are crimped together so cutting them apart is a big job. No need yet. Anyway upon removing the cover I found a 1/4" ball bearing wedged between the vanes and the wall where the fuel enters the cavity. Not only that there was hole wallowed out big enough to stick your pinky in. Also there was a screen about like window screen with a matching hole in it. The ball bearing apparently is part of the check valve system from what the local diesel guy said. He had never taken the cover off one and does 10-15 a week!!! for years!! Since I haven't cut the d...m thing apart yet I would guess that there is/was a passage cast into the pump body where ball bearing is dropped into and staked over at the top. This would prevent a leak back situation. Now this is a really hoakey way to do this. Probably ok on a hot rod that doesn't see the vibration of the diesel. But man after making diesels as long as Cummins has and with as many of these they have had problems with I sure would think they would do something better than this. For ex. tap the hole and screw in a plug with a hole in it. You can buy Allen set screws like this cheap. Secondly, surely don't mount this pump on the side of the diesel motor. These things hammer all the time not gently roll like a hot rod motor. I can just see this ball bearing flying around inside the housing. No wonder it wallowed out the wall. This pump should be mounted on the frame in rubber isolators. again cheap like 6 bucks for 3 of them list price. I tried hooking up the pump to the batt charger and it spins like mad it will pump volume but no pressure. Obviously due to the big gash in the vanes from the ball bearing. There were no fine particles anywhere in the pump or the filter so they had to be pretty small...hopefully they passed through my MP without damaging it.
There are at least 2 places that make better lift pumps however both are pretty pricey like 600 bucks. both mount on the frame and come with a complet bolt in kit. Today I just couldn't afford one but next May (1yr warr ends)
I called the Dodge dealer to see if they might help me out on warrentee......was I dreaming or what. So as I was awakening I called Cummins....:smash: right along side the ear. I don't know which one told me to take a flying leap farther.:mad:
ps it is not possible for this ball bearing to come from the tank as the fuel passages around the banjo fittings are too small for it to pass through...I checked this. This pump is mfg for Cummins by Carter in the U.S. of A.
pss The dealer wanted $266 for this pump and the diesel shop $185 so there is a bit of mark up here!!!
Well I now have a h....va fish tank pump laying in my shop. I guess it is a live box pump for you fish guys LOL Probably last a life time in a bass boat:rolleyes:

I talked to another shop re; the van and suggested removing the EGR valve and pipe and try to clean things out. He said these do get partially plugged sometimes. As long as I'm working on the manifold I'll do this too.
I post again later.
bentwings
 
#22 ·
I won't be any help with your problem I'm afraid, but I had a '98 Windstar.

I bought it used in 2000 with 21k on the clock. Extemely clean and ran great............for awhile. Then nothing but problems and $$$.

Not to rain on your parade but when I came across the 1998 Ford Windstar TSB listings, I decided to sell it.

I put about 20k miles on it and had it in the shop 6 times for major repairs. All of which were on the list. I dumped about $2k into it and said "No more".

It's gone now. Someone else's problem.

Just my luck it will run forever with no more problems now that I sold it. :rolleyes:
 
#23 ·
I'm so tough I laugh at the cold rain

I'm so tough I wear my dirty sleevless skin tight shirt, grimey dirty holey skin tight jeans (not baggy)have a 5 day black muscle beard, long straggly gray hair, grease up to my arm pits and a scowl that Arnold himself would be proud of. When I work on my van if it p....s me of I just bend over and roll it up on it's side so I get at the underneath. I don't open anything...just rip it off and throw it in the rapidly accumulating pile along side the house. My wife says the neighbors want to complain but they are afraid I'm a litle crazy and I will throw a fit if they come over. Little do they know.....:evil: :evil:
I'm sure that most ..no all cars and trucks have a long history of problems. It probably boils down to keeping the unit that you can live with take care of it and run it into the ground. Also probably why most of us have 4 or 5 cars and trucks in various state of running. You would think a good automotive technician would graduate up to the doctor level and make a killing fixing these abominations we are getting off the show rooms. I tried fixing and learing about these things and people would think I caused the problem they brought to me to fix. Maybe all the fine people on this forum could get together and form a big repair and re engineering house and make a killing doing what they really like to do.
Well back to the front junk yard.
thanks again for the help guys. bear with my humor.
bentwings
 
#24 ·
Hate to tell you mstngjoe but you can enter any Ford vehicle and come up with that many TSB's. Every time a repair is doccumented Ford keeps track of it. When multiple repairs occur for the same thing they issue a TSB (Tech Service Bullitin) simply to give techinicians a heads up for future repairs. It is a great service tool that all manufactures use, Ford just really issues alot of them. Unfortunately it seems as though you just got a lemon, they're out there.


 
#26 ·
here we are again

y'all are probably getting tired of all this van crap. Me too. My wife has been driving the crap out of it whether it runs good or not so I haven't been able to do the R&R on the manifold.

however...I did spray a bunch of water and carb cleaner around the manifold but no real luck.

I got a new PCV valve. Upon pulling the old one off I looked inside it and it was full of crud. Not a lot of flow either. The next thing was the short line (about 4 in) It is soft and flexible..so much so that it collapsed with very slight vacuum. It too was full of crud. Well I replaced these and checked the other lines to make sure that they were ok. I then took the rubber cone shaped connector hose off and cleaned the inside out where there is oil accumulating. I also cleaned the temp sensor with elec contact cleaner. The MAP sensor part looked very dry and clean so I left it alone. This all being done I took it for a drive. It seemed much improved with only a slight shudder around 50 in OD. So it is better. I still think there is a problem either in the EGR system or a manifold leak..maybe both. At the earliest time I plan on doing the mainfold but she keeps driving it all the free time I have.
I really want to try to isolate the problem so I can say ...yep this was it, so I will continue chasing. Hopefully I can post a list of what all went on with this PIA.
I did find where Ford has a replacement valve cover to fix the oil in the PVC system starting about 1999 so there is a problem with it. Mainly the lines are not vertical long enough to let the oil drain back to the valve cover.

Thanks again for all the help

bentwings
 
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