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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2008, 04:35 PM
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would this combo actually make this much power

I am thinking about future plans. I plan on slling some of the projects I will never finish to build a motor for the maverick. I have decided to make it a drag car. I was looking at AFR's website. The had dyno results. The has one built that claimed 455hp. I was wondering if this is true or are they stretching the truth. Here is the combo.



455 HP
302ci
185cc AFR
10:1
650 cfm Speed Demon 84/87 Jets
MSD Digital 7, 36 Timing
Comp Cams Extreme Energy Hyd Roller 282 Cam, 565/574 232/240 @.050 with 1.6 Rockers, 112 Lobe Sep.
1 3/4
92 Octane
Victor Jr
they has another combo that dynoed 751hp
751 HP
347ci
205cc AFR
13:1
Single 1050 CFM Carb
Comp Cams Trick Roller Cam (279-285-800 lift)
Super Victor Manifold
Jesel 1.7 Rockers
Custom made Hedman Headers (1.718 dia)
Manley aluminum rods (5.40 inches
would this be possible to get that amount of power and if so would it hold together. Thanks for any help.

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Old 07-11-2008, 05:01 PM
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seems a little high too me. I'm thinking 410 or 420hp for the 302 build.
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Old 07-11-2008, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
I was wondering if this is true or are they stretching the truth
AFR stuff is good as gold. They have what seems to be the best cylinder heads out there right now. Even the older heads are flat out awesome. Sure someone might chime there is better, but not for the money. AFR is a quality head that will outflow most other heads out of the box, and, make the most power. You'll be hard pressed to top what they have. They back their product 100%.

Who's gonna argue with a track record like theirs?
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Old 07-11-2008, 11:32 PM
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I read somewhere that a stock 302 block can only handle 600hp but 500 would definately be safer. 751hp surely is a aftermarket block which means big bucks.
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Old 07-12-2008, 12:39 AM
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The AFR's really are that good. You only have to run a pair to know that they are the best thing short of a custom $3500 pro ported head.
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Old 07-12-2008, 12:39 AM
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I have used AFRs several times before because I always heard they were the best, but I was ALWAYS disappointed in the performance. Their flow to port volume ratios aren't anything to write home about, and they tend to inflate flow numbers. Put them on a bench yourself and you'll probably find they don't flow nearly as much as AFR claims.

Having toured their facility several times, I can see why. Their CNC machine is older than dirt, and their port models are getting old; as in last updated in the early 90s for most traditional blocks from what I understand.

AFRs are fine heads and they perform great, but I think they make most of their money by publishing big claims and hoping that the person who buys it doesn't actually know what HP feels like. They seem a bit "boutique" to me; all claim and not much game. One of the sets I had, the CNC machine dug way too fast and too deep into one side of the chamber and totally missed the other side. The fact that they screwed up is human, but to miss it during inspection, or to actively send it to me anyway knowing it was messed up just turned my stomach.

Any time you see over 2 hp per CI in a stroker block, you can pretty much bet you're looking at a shortblock that is in the 5-figure range.

... and, no, it won't hold together, nor will it make any power until 5000 rpm. And it will idle at 2000.

Put it this way... I'm currently building an LT1 383 stroker. For $2700 I could have AFR 180s... BUT, instead I'm going to spend $1800 on custom CNC ported LT1 heads that flow as much actual air (not advertised) as the AFR 180s, and that 18 bills also gets me titanium retainers, pacalloy beehive springs, 2.02/1.6 valves, and an F1-spec TIR < .00012" valvejob with Manley stainless ProFlos AND (the big one) my choice of a custom made, hardened billet roller cam.

I strongly suggest looking to other avenues. If you're rich and you want the prestige of AFR's name to wow the guys at the cruise-in, go for it. If you want to go fast and your name isn't Midas, look elsewhere.

Last edited by curtis73; 07-12-2008 at 12:52 AM.
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Old 07-12-2008, 02:03 AM
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The AFR 180's are for your grandma's car, I'm talkin' real manly heads in the 210cc+ range. The two sets we tested on a SF-600 bench were within
1 1/2% of what AFR said they were.
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Old 07-12-2008, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72
The AFR 180's are for your grandma's car, I'm talkin' real manly heads in the 210cc+ range. The two sets we tested on a SF-600 bench were within
1 1/2% of what AFR said they were.
X2, every AFR head i have dealt with has been spot on as far advertised flow numbers. can't say that for the other major player cnc ported heads. also if you ever do have a problem with AFR heads, their customer service is second to none.


sam-missle
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Old 07-12-2008, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curtis73
I have used AFRs several times before because I always heard they were the best, but I was ALWAYS disappointed in the performance. Their flow to port volume ratios aren't anything to write home about, and they tend to inflate flow numbers. Put them on a bench yourself and you'll probably find they don't flow nearly as much as AFR claims.

Having toured their facility several times, I can see why. Their CNC machine is older than dirt, and their port models are getting old; as in last updated in the early 90s for most traditional blocks from what I understand.

AFRs are fine heads and they perform great, but I think they make most of their money by publishing big claims and hoping that the person who buys it doesn't actually know what HP feels like. They seem a bit "boutique" to me; all claim and not much game. One of the sets I had, the CNC machine dug way too fast and too deep into one side of the chamber and totally missed the other side. The fact that they screwed up is human, but to miss it during inspection, or to actively send it to me anyway knowing it was messed up just turned my stomach.

Any time you see over 2 hp per CI in a stroker block, you can pretty much bet you're looking at a shortblock that is in the 5-figure range.

... and, no, it won't hold together, nor will it make any power until 5000 rpm. And it will idle at 2000.

Put it this way... I'm currently building an LT1 383 stroker. For $2700 I could have AFR 180s... BUT, instead I'm going to spend $1800 on custom CNC ported LT1 heads that flow as much actual air (not advertised) as the AFR 180s, and that 18 bills also gets me titanium retainers, pacalloy beehive springs, 2.02/1.6 valves, and an F1-spec TIR < .00012" valvejob with Manley stainless ProFlos AND (the big one) my choice of a custom made, hardened billet roller cam.

I strongly suggest looking to other avenues. If you're rich and you want the prestige of AFR's name to wow the guys at the cruise-in, go for it. If you want to go fast and your name isn't Midas, look elsewhere.
\

flow numbers are just a number, you can make any head flow great numbers but will it make your car faster? when you get your LT1 heads compare them to the AFR'S. let us know if they actually flow the same with the same port velocity. i think you will be suprised, and find that the AFR is a far better head.

sam-missle
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Old 07-12-2008, 01:09 PM
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I am no expert but I myself would look at those numbers as pretty high. about 50 to high.
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Old 07-12-2008, 05:43 PM
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Stock Ford 302 blocks will hold together for awhile with 450 hp, push it to 500 hp and expect it to split right in half down the lifter gallery. I wouldn't push a stock 302 block more than 400 hp if you want any kind of life out of the engine. This is why Ford Motorsports makes the beefed up 302 blocks and World makes a even better 302 block. It is very easy to make too much hp for a stock 302 and have it spit parts everywhere.
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Old 07-12-2008, 06:01 PM
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The Lt1 owner is completely right. AFR isnt what it used to be. They used to be awesome but when they went to make their LT1 heads they just transfered over a slightly modified SBC. The LTX AFRS blow. Especially for the money.

The onyl LTX AFRs worth buying are the 227cc and only the guys doing all out builds are buying those and about 99% of them are having them shipped out for more port work.

A ported stock casting is a far better head for the money for the LTx crowd, and flow numbers dont mean jack.

People like Advanced Induction are doing good work with ported stock castings. Hows 500whp out of a 355 on an LTX manifold sound?
Go to advancedinduction.com

And the other ones, the LT4 raised runner AFRs are apparently a huge ***** and ALOT of money to get setup properly.

I have seen some pretty weak things from AFR lately and there are alot better choices out there.

Their LSX castings are pretty darn good but people are doing the same things with ported 5.3 heads. About the only good things I have to say are their 205cc LSx heads have some great mid lift numbers.
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Old 07-12-2008, 06:24 PM
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Opti... thats the exact porter I'm using; advanced induction. Nice heads, and I agree. Their published timeslips tell the truth; power and torque under the curve is what wins the race.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sam missle
flow numbers are just a number, you can make any head flow great numbers but will it make your car faster? when you get your LT1 heads compare them to the AFR'S. let us know if they actually flow the same with the same port velocity. i think you will be suprised, and find that the AFR is a far better head.
Done and done. Not with my LT1 heads because I don't have them, but I saw the proof in the pudding on the bench with a club member's LT1 heads done by AI. Much better velocity through the neck and far less short turn delamination than the AFRs. The AFRs I used were just absolute junk, handled by idiots, and machined on an ancient CNC by a company that doesn't know squat. I truly hope the three sets of heads I had and the terrible customer service I had were an isolated incident, but I only offer this story to maybe make people aware that they shouldn't blindly trust them.

Oh... and on the topic of customer service, those AFRs that I mentioned with the CNC cut too deep on one side of the chamber and untouched on the other? They refused to accept them for return. I had to drive the heads up there, show them what was wrong, and then they offered to refund me minus a 30% restocking fee - which brings up two very murky things. Either they intended on putting them back on the shelf for some other poor soul, or they were just going to junk them and soak me for 30%. I had to get a lawyer, so when it comes to customer service? Don't ask ME about it.
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Old 07-12-2008, 06:46 PM
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Tany Mamo is a good guy and really knows his stuff but I think when it comes to the LTX and GEN 1 stuff, they are just resting on their laurels.
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Old 07-12-2008, 07:07 PM
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I think that is a legitiment number.

Bare in mind there is a LOT more to making horse power than throwing a bunch of specific parts together and hooking it to a dyno.

There is 20-30 hp difference in the honing jobs done on cylinder walls.
There is 10-20 hp difference in the rings that are used. full circle?
Piston crown detailing makes up to 30 hp difference on many engines.
We know that thin synthetic oil is good for 1 1/2 % more power, instantly.
Then you use a Jessel drive and get the cam timing perfect for what the combination wants,
change pushrods to find any harmonic unbalance and get the best numbers.
etc.

Lot of "minor" details done by skilled craftsmen add up to more hp than what can be duplicated by the hot rod masses.

You can bet your money that the AFR engines are detailed to the max in every way, shape, form, and fashion.

Realisticly IMO if most of us put together the identical parts list we would be doing good to get 90% of the stated figure.

Last edited by ScoTFrenzel; 07-12-2008 at 07:16 PM.
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