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Old 07-06-2003, 12:59 AM
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Would you guess it's runnin rich or lean

Okay heres the deal, I'm not sure as to if my car is runnin rich or lean.

It does have an odd smell, although it is not gassy or anything like any rich cars I have smelled before (this could be because I have a cat on there that is burning its self up)

The car does idle a bit high (idle screw is backed off, fast idle selnoid is off, idle is lower because i fixed a binding secondary issue) it idles around 700, and the temperature seems very normal if not low. However this is an 80s camaro that I removed the emissions canister on. With the canister intact it used to run like crap with a high flow air cleaner on it (it couldn't even brakestand barley) I've been running it with no air cleaner (not moving anywhere, just in the garage).Oh yeah and if it matters it seems to run stronger, start better, and sound beter with no canister. However the downfall is it seems to change idle more (the idle surges by about 25 rpm and then settles down, on a cycle)

I know I'm going to have to adjust it with the restrictive air cleaner on, but I am considering removing and replacing it. (you know a guy gained like 0.5-1 second over his stock 305 running very good by changing to a dual snorkle air cleaner from a 305 HO and then retuning the carb)

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Old 07-06-2003, 03:03 AM
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Hmmmm...let me consult the all seeing coin

...[flip]...ping!

Ahhhh...heads...very bad omen. I am feeling something now...here it comes...rich...very rich...drop down...hmmm...let me get the crystal ball...[rub][rub][rub]...ahhhhhmmm...10 jet sizes outa do it. You guys should really get yourselves one of these things, they are great!

Does looking at the plugs seem like a good idea? I can't see them from here? Wait! it's becoming clearer...ahhh now I can see them.

Definetly rich, look how the insulator is nearly black...and those little silver balls attached to the tip...thats detonation. Easy fix just run without the aircleaner. The engine sucking air will restrict itself and stop the detonation. Old racers trick.

You might want to punch out the baffles in the muffler too, fixes everything.

Have a nice day!
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Old 07-06-2003, 03:25 AM
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Well chuck the plugs looked fine last time i had them out. Except # 8 which was melted, so I replaced all the plugs. They had a small amount of brownish stuff on them, but they seemed to appear how they should.


Oh yeah the muffler on this on was leaking, so I just ripped it off, the cat is now the muffler. :laugh:

So Chuck why the latest influx of BS?
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Old 07-06-2003, 06:22 AM
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without consulting the supernatural, as my orb needs some work, i say too rich.if you take off the breather and it runs better, it must need more air,therefore i say rich. your screwing with your carb??i live in a place of 55,000 people , and there was only one really good carb guy, and he died of old age.this guy could gain mileage on a lada , and without more than a good ear and a screwdriver.no one has been able to pick up the gauntlet yet.good luck with the project.... mike
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Old 07-06-2003, 06:26 AM
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I think I may buy me one of them handy dandy vaccume gauges... if I ever get to a store.
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Old 07-06-2003, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
So Chuck why the latest influx of BS?
Me B.S.?

Nah!

Actually taking the effort to check the plugs before posting might have been a good idea. Mentioning you had a melted plug might have been a big help. I think you have been around here long enough to know how it works...right? You put in some effort and there are many waiting to help.

Didn't you once tell me that you didn't care if you pi$$ed everyone else off because you don't need anyone's help and you could always search the knowledge base and find an answer?

The search button is at the top right hand corner of the page.

..of course if you actually went out into the garage and pulled all eight plugs today (keeping them numbered) and posting what you find for color and condition...you might get some results. My crystal ball has been acting up lately and it has trouble seeing outside my Province.

What do you think Dave? Sound like a plan?
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Old 07-06-2003, 05:00 PM
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Flip...Ping

Chuck...If your coin is pinging I think you should take some advance out of it! Try not to flip so hard. All it takes is over one revolution to get a heads/tails chance! If you don't think you can manually change the fliption then go to a heavier coin.
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Old 07-06-2003, 07:35 PM
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Knowing Chuck the coin is balanced and blueprinted with shaved edges for aerodynamics for undetermined rotation of the coin.
Gee Chuck I cant see that fer. Where can I get one of those crystal balls at.
Come on Dave what color are the rest of the plugs ?
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Old 07-07-2003, 04:51 PM
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So? What do they look like?

Hello?

Is anyone there?

Hello?
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Old 07-07-2003, 05:16 PM
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Okay it turns out just one is brownish. The rest are all black. The black ones and the brownish one are sooty. This says it is probably rich.. Thing is, if it is rich, then why doesn't it take well to having a higher flow air cleaner on it?

Oh yeah and chuck, I am hesitant to pull the plugs cuz last time I got the starter wire. ( I COULD just unhook the battery)

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Old 07-07-2003, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikeweyman
your screwing with your carb??i live in a place of 55,000 people , and there was only one really good carb guy, and he died of old age.this guy could gain mileage on a lada , and without more than a good ear and a screwdriver.no one has been able to pick up the gauntlet yet.good luck with the project.... mike
All I can say is get out of Nova Scotia Mike!

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Old 07-07-2003, 08:41 PM
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Some things for you to check.

Quote:
Thing is, if it is rich, then why doesn't it take well to having a higher flow air cleaner on it?
Your air cleaner has very little to do with the mixture of your carb...unless it's plugged solid!

How much have you "played" with the carb? Do you have the caps off the mixture screws? Have you had the top of the bowl off yet? What jets are in the carb now? You mentioned you adjusted the secondary air valve, does it snap shut nicely or is it hanging open? You mentioned you pulled the mufflers off the car and left the cat(s), did you rod out the honeycomb internals? The canister you removed, did it have a date code on it stamped GM 12-4160? What was the number on the canister if not? Is the soot on the plugs fluffy and black or dark and clumpy? If you scrape the plug deposits with a knife what color is under the fluffy black stuff. What make of plugs are these and what heat range? Have you examined your plug wires with an ohmeter? How about the plugs? Have you tried doing a plug chop? What was the resistance of the wires on average was there any that were higher than the others? How much out was it (if it was)? Does your air cleaner have enough clearance between the top hat and the carb vents? What is the float level in the carb...measured. Is the car manual choke or electric? Does it open all the way? When you stomp the gas from a standstill is there a puff of black smoke or is it grey? Have you measured the output of the fuel pump yet? Have you checked your vacuum lines for leaks with a vacuum pump? Check your carb fittings for cracks or loose tubes also. Is there a fuel filter in line somewhere?Is it clean?

Let us know.
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Old 07-07-2003, 09:27 PM
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Thumbs up all right 4Jaw

that ought to keep him busy for a day or two......
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Old 07-07-2003, 09:46 PM
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Okay here is the deal, on the camaros the air cleaners are very restrictive. The plugs are pretty new and the deposits are like soot you would find on the sides of your fireplace. There is metal under these deposits. The plugs are bosch platinums that are pregapped. Do not know the heat range but they are the ones recommended in the book. I have not tested the plug wires and do not have a multimeter to do so. I have not chopped the plugs. Clearance on the air cleaner is fine. Do not know the float levles, jet size, and such (its a Q-jet I can't figure it out, I just learned where the mixture screws are) Choke is electric choke and functioning fine. Honestly, I don't think when it is floored from a standstill there is really any smoke. Then again I may be wrong since I spend most of my time IN the car and there is not a big cloud left behind. I have not measured the output of the fuel pump yet, I probably do not have the tools to do so. There are no vaccum leaks. Fuel filter is clean.

The carb secondaries were binding (sometimes still do) due to grease, they just barley stay open when they do it.

The canister does have a number like that I believe. (looks very familiar)

I did not bash the honeycomb internals outta my cat
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Old 07-07-2003, 10:45 PM
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Cool! Now we are getting somewhere.

You might want to get a manual on Q-jets, the HP variety are OK to start with or you can print off something off the internet. Lots of sites out there that have "how-to's" online. A rebuild kit will get you familiar with the carb and teach you how to take it apart, you don't actually have to dip the carb at this point but having spare parts handy and knowing the float level is required to progress to tuning.

Is the car driveable/licensed? If it is, go and get some new plugs...I usually do plug chops with Champions, they always seem to be on sale somewhere.

The procedure for doing a plug chop varies from person to person so don't be surprised if you hear a different method, here's mine.

Get a friend and enough tools to change plugs in the middle of nowhere, bring a spare plug wire just in case you trash one accidentaly...same goes for a spare plug. A stop watch is handy to check for a change in performance so record the time it takes to reach redline in 4th, your friend can operate the watch if you like.

Drive out onto a rarely used highway, one where you could work on the side of the road without getting whacked by traffic. Try to do this on a day that is very cool 15-20 Celcius is ideal for us Canadians. Your test will occur in top gear from whatever speed it will run at in 4th cleanly (2000rpm is usually good), having a hill to climb will add additional load to the car which is ideal if you can find it.

Stop the car and change plugs while the engine is hot, make sure there is no traffic in any direction

Next your friend will sit in the backseat to watch out the back window to see what is coming out the pipes, do your full throttle run and time it from the instant you mash the throttle in 4th to redline. Shut the engine down with the key and push in the clutch, coast to a stop with the engine off. Write down the time it took to reach redline in top gear and the speed/rpm you were going when you dropped the hammer in 4th. Also note your observers comments

Pull all your new plugs out and label their position. Install old plugs and drive home.

Borrow/buy a magnifier, something 6X-12X power is good. I use a 12X lens with a built in light, cost me $15 at Radio Shack. Once you are this far we can go into reading the plugs.

Let us know.
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